How do I get to the immobiliser ?

[jim mac]

following a strop for fuel the bike (Norge 1200) went into lockdown mode when I tried to start it, nothing happening until I put in the security code, then able to start bike but with red triangle of death and Service sign on dash all the time.

tried three different keys, all same result. managed to get into the dash fault section and noted error 2 - key not inserted or transponder broken.

so, assuming it is a new transponder job, how do you get at it to check and replace if required? it looks like its handle bars off, top yoke off and pull up to get to barrel - is that right ? any traps or problem areas to be aware of ? I note that there are several threads on transponders but no one actually mentions how to get it out ?

any help please

regards
Jim

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Hi Jim,

The antenna is part of the ignition switch. I have seen this issue a dozen times. I have never seen nor heard of any antenna needing replacement unless something physically tore the wire from the ring which is practically near to impossible.

I will bet 5:1 it is not your antenna at all but a poor condition battery.

Get the battery LOAD TESTED. It will most likely fail.

Well documented here via SEARCH.

 

[jim mac]

as I said Scott, i have viewed the various threads but havent found any that advise how to get at the barrel - asking for advice on that. Battery has been load tested and is fine, alternator charging at 14.1

would a poor battery show 02 error code on the dash indicating a faulty antenna ?

 

[john zibell]

Jim, My understanding is you will have to lift the top triple clamp to get at the ignition switch securing screws. The immobilizer antenna shows up on the parts list diagram, but I can't find a part number for it. It shows as part of the wiring harness. I'm hoping someone has run across this and can help you out.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

as I said Scott, i have viewed the various threads but havent found any that advise how to get at the barrel - asking for advice on that. Battery has been load tested and is fine, alternator charging at 14.1

would a poor battery show 02 error code on the dash indicating a faulty antenna ?

I read every word of what you wrote but I tried to direct you to the real problem but you want to ignore the wisdom I'm trying to give to you for free! Normally, I get paid very well for this knowledge. Your diagnosis is wrong. I wasn't even going to respond but I'll try again.

Yes it will, every time. This is why I gave you my response that I did. (There are TSB's from Piaggio on this issue. It's more common on their scooters due to smaller batteries. It's also much more obvious because the immobilizer function on Piaggio scooters is tied to the horn and lights, and the horn goes nuts honking and the lights flash to signal the scooter is being stolen.)

As an owner of 2 Piaggio scooters with this same setup, I can tell you absolutely yes. The poor battery will generate that code. I can replicate the problem with 100% certainty.

I have had a dozen Piaggios and some Moto Guzzi's and even some Ducati's in my shop all exhibiting the same thing It is always a poor battery state that causes this everytime. My own scooters included. I have tested them through controlled battery discharge but what the hell do I know anyway...right?

The immobilizer is HIGHLY SUSCEPTIBLE to battery voltage and condition. 11.0V volts and it doesn't work correctly about 50% of the time. 10.5 volts or less, it doesn't function maybe 10% of the time. Less than 10.3V and it will not function at all.

There is no servicable part of the antenna. It is a bulletproof design that as I said, only fails if the wire is ripped out. I have never seen a failed one. John Zibell with his 30+ years experience it would seem has never replaced one as he tells you he doesn't know. I venture that nobody here has replaced one because they simply do not fail.

When the voltage is crap, they all fail to read (e.g. all your keys failed to read in your example ) because of electrical power supply issues. Fix the electrical power supply, and the problem disappears like a fart in the wind.

One other thing, Piaggio in their TSB reported that metal objects, attached to the keys, also cause read errors. Using just a key, with no metal ring or any other metal attached to it, also helps prevent this issue.

This is also published in another Piaggio communication document:

"Immobiliser looses it's program or fails to read keys. - Normally it is not possible for an immobiliser to loose it's programming or fail to read programmed keys but if you have a vehicle that was running but now is showing these issues, the cause is most likely the battery condition affecting the immobiliser or antenna or it could be extreme electrical interference caused by a faulty plug cap or HT lead. Fully check the battery condition and if this is not the cause, then fit a new resistor plug cap (at least 5000 ohms) and plug lead before trying to reprogram the unit."

If your battery is indeed load testing fine and the internal resistance is less than 20 mOhms, then I would use sand paper on every post and contact to the battery as well as the ground strap, and see if your resultant voltage actually being delivered through your wiring loom is consistent with the battery reading.

If you use the onboard dashboard display,
set it to the voltage display, and watch carefully what it is resting and what it drops to when you try to start the bike.

Look...If you don't like the information that I have given to you, based upon personal experience and knowledge, then ignore it. I won't beg you to listen.

I've given you my very best efforts and professional information for free. I hope you consider it and find it helpful.

Be happy.



Moto Guzzi part # 981087 Immobilizer antenna - There are no serviceable parts to the immobilizer ring. There is nothing to fail as there is no moving part.

 

[john zibell]

Scott,

Jim said the battery passed the load test. He may have a broken wire to the antenna or in the harness.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Scott,

Jim said the battery passed the load test. He may have a broken wire to the antenna or in the harness.

If your battery is indeed load testing fine and the internal resistance is less that 20 miliOhms, then I would use sand paper on every post and contact to the battery as well as the ground strap, and see if your resultant voltage actually being delivered through your wiring loom is consistent with the battery reading.

If you use the onboard dashboard display,
set it to the voltage display, and watch carefully what it is resting and what it drops to when you try to start the bike.

Although I don’t believe so…

Maybe I’ve got cranial-rectal inversion and I’ve underestimated the harsh Scottish weather and you could have a broken wire…so…

If you truly want to tear it apart…

First you take off the tank, remove the handlebars setting them aside, and then the top triple tree. It’s a plate so it’s pretty straightforward.

The ignition switch bolts are only accessible from the bottom so it must be removed. It’s pretty cut and dry.

Here is a photo of what you will have removed (just the triple tree, ignore the gas cap and cylinder on the right)

You should be able to see clearly how it is mounted on the bike and then figure it out from this photo.

You just take your time and carefully unbury the triple tree.

(I’m sorry but I don’t have time to write out a step by step explanation. If you have the necessary skills, then you will be able to do it from what I have shared here)

When you loosen everything up, you use a soft mallet or a wood block to tap it off of the fork tubes.

You can see the antenna wire clearly in the photo. Looks just like the wire in the part photo I gave you earlier.

Check the continuity of the wire. If it’s good, then the antenna is not your problem.



I've offered what I can. You have to use your own judgement,

I'm done offering any more unwanted information.

I hope you find a broken wire. If you do, then I am wrong (would not be the first time or the last) and that is all there is to it. Although I believe it to be highly unlikely, it is a possibility. So, apologies in advance if you do find one.

Good luck!

 

[William H.]

Jim
Just to throw it out there, Have you tried hooking up Battery charger for extra voltage and then seeing if the bike reads the key

 

[tris]

Have a VERY close look inside the plug that you can see in Scott's picture of the Immobiliser. Both the antenna side and the loom side

My B11 dropped dead one day and I tracked it down to one of the spade connectors inside one of the plugs had failed so no longer made a contact. Specifically the springy bit inside the female connector had dropped off

The ECU/Dash "thought" it saw a failed antenna (open circuit) and reacted accordingly

You can also check across the antenna for continuity with a meter, it's just a simple coil of wire essentially

I crimped on a new (correct size) spade connector, and normal service was resumed

On the B11 I think that I did all of this without removing anything (maybe tank??) but the N12 might need a bit more work

Tris

PS, if you discover it is the female terminal PM me as I still have one I my pot of connectors I think

 

[jim mac]

i took bike to a mate who had just bought a new battery for one of his bikes, unopened, still in box. swopped them around and no change. took one out of his daily runner - no change. so i guess it is a strip down to check antenna on the barrell. i will let you know what result is - thanks for the help

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Last suggestion:

Before you strip it, I would first use sandpaper on the battery cables, and the ground wire, making sure they are completely clean with minimal resistance.

If that doesn’t do the trick, then at least you are 100% certain of clean power going to the antenna before you take off the triple tree.

Good luck.

 

[john zibell]

i took bike to a mate who had just bought a new battery for one of his bikes, unopened, still in box. swopped them around and no change. took one out of his daily runner - no change. so i guess it is a strip down to check antenna on the barrell. i will let you know what result is - thanks for the help

Jim. Are you making any headway on this issue?

 

[Davy]

Jim, From my experience, if there's a problem with the electrics then the error code is likely to be wrong. At least it has warned you of something. I've had some strange error codes over the years.

Not trying to tech my granny to sook eggs but, check battery, fuses, earths, then every block connector particularly the ones just behind the steering head, which are excellent at catching the salt spray from our lovely Scottish roads. Please do this before ripping into transponders and the like as they are much less likely to fail. Wish you luck.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

So, did anything ever happen with this?

 

[jim mac]

i have been busy with a BMW boxer, and just using the norge by entering the code each time, but now have time to check it out. i will post up a result