Is this stricly condensation ? Or something else

[ett]

Dealer did first service on my new Griso 8V at 900 miles ~2 months ago.
Bike now has 4,772 miles.
During this past week; the right cylinder has developed a tapping sound upon start up in the cold mornings.
So I assumed some valves needed adjusting.
Upon taking off the cylinder covers I saw the following:

Right cylinder head:

Left cylinder head:

Although it's been a mild winter here in the Mid Atlantic states.
It's still been below freezing most mornings during my 2-3/4 hour ( 1 hr 20 min each way), mostly high speed interstate, 130 mile (65 each way) commute.
Since the bike has only been ridden in the rain once for less than 1/2 hour; could all that contamination be strictly condensation ?
Isn't my commute getting the motor oil hot enough to get rid of any condensation ?

 

[lucky phil]

Looks like condensation related.I'd be running it on a group 4 full synthetic oil (mobil1 0w-40 for instance) and taping over the oil cooler.
Ciao

 

[ett]

Looks like condensation related.I'd be running it on a group 4 full synthetic oil (mobil1 0w-40 for instance) and taping over the oil cooler.
Ciao

I'm currently running AGIP's synthetic 10w60. And soon to be switching to Motul's synthetic 10w60.
Didn't think about covering the oil cooler.

Thanks !

 

[rocker59]

It's condensation from the bike not running warm enough.

Usually shows up on bikes that make shorter runs than yours, though.

 

[john zibell]

Doesn't matter what oil you use. When the ambient temperature drops this will form. I don't think blocking the oil cooler would be a good thing either. Once it warms up, the goo will not form until next fall.

 

[ghezzi]

John, my experience with air cooled Ducati running an oil cooler and oil temp guarge, even in warm sunny Qld (?) a rainy cool day can have the oil temp drop off the scale registering 'C' for COLD when oil was below 40*C.

I quickly gafer taped the cooler in these conditions, removed when oil hit 80-90*C

Been looking at the prospect of converting dashboard "Ambient" air temp reading to oil temp on CARC bikes.

 

[Penis Rotor]

There will always be moisture in the gasses within the crankcase. Water is one of the major by-products of combustion and it till condense out on any surcace cool enoughbto let it. Because the rocker covers are so well insulated on the 8V unless the motor gets good and hot,and even then in cold weather, the rocker covers are going to be prime candidates for mayonaise.

As for blocking off the cooler? Given that the exhaust valve seats and piston crowns rely heavily on the oil for cooling and will be running much the same temperatures regardless of the atmospheric ambient I would caution against impeding the cooler in any way.IS this being over-cautious? No idea! But if it was considered that the oil running too cool was a problem adding a thrmostat would of been a very cheap and easy otion for the factory. They didn't.

My sollution would be to ride further and harder to get the oil warmer and if I was really worried I'd make up some air deflectors to shield the rocker covers but in all honesty mayonaise in rocker covers is a problem that effects many machines, earlier Guzzis are far from exempt, and while not desirable I've never heard of a failure that could be attributed to it.

Pete

 

[Rafael]

I've only seen this much emulsion in a Quota with a rusted shut PCV check valve. Not sure how stuck valve causes the problem since the valve covers are open to the crankcase and hose connected to the breather box. In any case the new motors do not have a check valve but depend on vacuum to draw crankcase gases into combustion chambers.

Have you looked inside the air filter box? Checked you air box dump tube plug? If the vacuum tube from the breather box to the filter box is clogged it will give the vapors more time to condensate.

Once the vapors condense and emulsify is pretty tough for the motor to get it out without the one of the conditions changing, like a much longer ride or higher ambient temps. Emulsion is a great moisture trap.

Would higher oil temps reduce condensation? I'm not sure, but the implication is that a higher oil ratio in the vapor mixture would some how allow the emulsion drain to back into to the crankcase or separate from the water? Water would end up in the oil instead of being burned. The condensation is dependent on a differential in temperature. A hotter oil may just increase that temp difference.

Dew point is the key. And your valve cover photos are a great illustration. Note that the emulsion occurs under that uninsulated area of the valve cover where the cold air strikes first and not under the the area where the ornamental plastic cover is located.

I bet, if under the same conditions, that if you do the same ride with some sort of insulator over one valve cover and the other left uncovered as the control, you will find that the insulated one will not have the mo-goo-mayo. The water will remain vaporized and get sucked through the intake box. A little water in the oil probably won't hurt anything in the short term but water isn't a good motor lube.

I don't think an deflector will work - eddies will cool that valve cover just the same. Maybe some knitted fiber glass or a pinned down leather glove.

I wonder if condensation prevention in the motive behind the double wall valve cover on the new 1400cc motor? Or maybe it will be an a incidental benefit from a different intent?

 

[Mi_ka]

Could water condensation of this kind (though milder) and repeatedly over many days be related to the dreaded tappet failures of the 8V? Oil mayonaise surely has got worse lubricating properties than the oil the pump supplies later on after start-up and combined with the aggressive timing slopes of the cams this could be an explanation for the too random conditions of the failure happening, couldn't it? Sunny UK and similar climates aren't the main place of these failures occurring?

 

[Ad B]

Hi,
I agree with Pete.
When you drive mainly short rides, put once a week or so a good long or longer trip.
So the whole engine warms up very good.
I've seen it in my cylinder covers once, the first time I opened them.
I had my G12 for two weeks at that time.
Last week I opened them again, my G12 has done 10.000 km (6250 mls) now.
So everywhere new oil, oilfilter and I checked the valves (play).
This is how it looked, I didn't clean the cover.


I've set the play for all 4 inlet valves at 0.11-0.115 mm (0.0043-0.0045 inch),
the 4 outlet at 0.16-0.165 mm (0.0063-0.0065 inch).
I like to do a precise job... :mrgreen:
I do it in the following way:
I use a 0.05 mm gauge at the inlet, the clock should show 0.06-0.065 mm play. Total play is 0.11-0.115 mm
At the outlet I use a 0.10 mm gauge, the clock should show also 0.06-0.065 mm play Total play is 0.16-0.165 mm.
Springtime is starting a bit, so this week or next week I'm going to ride my G12 again... Hiiiiihaaaa!!! :woohoo:

Ad B

 

[cyclobutch]

I wouldn't consider that the 65 miles ett covers each way would in any way constitute running short trips. The bike is surely going to get as hot as its ever gonna under prevailing conditions over that mileage. That being the case it suggests that Pete's view that the Rocker covers remain cool throughout and thus forces the condensation to liquefy must hold true surely?

 

[ett]

I wouldn't consider that the 65 miles ett covers each way would in any way constitute running short trips. The bike is surely going to get as hot as its ever gonna under prevailing conditions over that mileage. That being the case it suggests that Pete's view that the Rocker covers remain cool throughout and thus forces the condensation to liquefy must hold true surely?

Thanks all for the comments and suggestions.
Since first posting I've taken a few different ways to work this week. All at below freezing temps.

All high speed interstate with an average cruising speed of 65mph.
All high speed interstate with an average cruising speed of 65mph; while drafting trucks.
All high speed interstate with an average cruising speed of 80mph.
All high speed interstate with an average cruising speed of 80mph; while drafting trucks.
All back roads with an average speed of 50mph.

And in all cases the valve covers were cold to the touch as soon as I parked the motorcycle at work.

It's been over 20 years since I last rode an air/oil cooled motorcycle.
And I was not doing my own maintenance at the time.
So although this mayonnaise is probably normal.
I guess it's understandable why I was ignorant upon seeing it.

I haven't had time to check if the oil breather/drain tube is blocked.
Yes I know it probably only take 5 minutes. But that's 5 minutes I haven't had since first posting.
I'll check this weekend.

Thanks;
--ET

 

[alpine]

About 30 year ago in my small business sevicing Honda cars I use to run into that kind of build up when I unscrewed the oil cap . It was always cars using Penzoil oils . You always knew the cars using Penzoil . Nowdays I do not see that build up in any cars.

Roberto.

 

[Mi_ka]

That's interesting - any explanation?

 

[Chicago Mark]

ETT,

Seems everything on the bike may be doing as good as it can under the circumstances you have it in. Thankfully you're using the correct Agip 10W-60 oil. What you seem to need is an automobile! An air/oil cooled motorcycle with the cylinders sticking out in the air stream at under freezing temperatures is the problem. Let's say you're running 65mph at 30 degrees F. The wind chill is in the low single digits, (degree F) in that situation. Perhaps there's no way the engine will ever get to operating temperature. Therefore, you'll continue to get oil goo on the front of the valve covers until you ride in warmer weather.

Just a thought,

Mark

 

[ett]

What ? Ride in a cage ?
Nah not me. As long as the roads are clear of snow, salt, or ice; then I'm riding.

I've had the valve covers off twice to check the valves since I first started this thread.
Once in mid March at 7,000 miles.
And just today at 12,000 miles.

In mid March the valve gear was mostly free of the goo; but the inside of the valve covers looked the same.
(Sorry; forgot to take photos.)
So that time I wiped them clean.
That goo was more solid than it appeared. It was almost like semi-solid candle wax.
Was using Agip 10w60 at that time.
(Yes I know the goo is not due to brand or type of oil. Just thought it worth mentioning.)

Today when checking the valves; the insides of the valve covers were mostly free of goo.
Only the left valve cover had trace amount of goo.
The temps for the past month has been in the 40's and 50's during my commutes.
The oil used this time was a mixture of 1-liter AGIP 10w60 and 2.5 liters Motul 10w60.

 

[Rafael]

There's probably not a market for some one to make valve cover muffs for the 8V motors, not many riders in 30 degree weather. B) I don't do it on purpose anymore just when I get caught in the snow or whatever on a road trip.

In my earlier post I mentioned inspecting the hoses to make sure they didn't get clogged. It occurred to me that vapors are less likely to condense on shielded plastic. But you never know unless you check. If the goo ever collected there it's probably gone by now with the nice weather.

Never seen this goo get as hard as soft candle wax. I'd be worried that it might slide down and plug a oil return gallery. That was happening on the Camry a few years back, IIRC they never recalled, they told owners to change oil more frequently.

ett, do you have access to non-ethanol fuel? I'm wondering if ethanol might have an affect on vapor production.

 

[Chicago Mark]

All the gas options we have around here contain ethanol. Therefore I add gas Line Anti Freeze to the bikes in an effort to contain the excess water in the gas. I typically also add SeaFoam and/or Stabil as well.

Mark

 

[Mi_ka]

Would the construction of some tiny filtered breather per head tamper with oil distribution?