Less drain plug debris after switching to Motul ?

[ett]

Sorry if this turns out to be just another oil thread. But ...
I just did another oil change on my new 2010 left-over Griso 8V I just bought 6 months ago in Dec.

The first 900 miles had whatever oils the factory or dealer installed,
between 900 and 4,500 miles I used AGIP's 10w60,
between 4,500 and 8,000 miles I again used AGIP's 10w60
between 8,000 and 11,000 it had a mixture of AGIP's 10w60 and Motul's 7100 10w60,
and this past mileage from 11,000 to 14,500 miles it exclusively had Motul's 7100 10w60.
And with each oil change; I also changed the gearbox and CARC oils.
Each time using AGIP's 85w90 and 80w90 respectively.

With this last oil change I noticed that the motor drain plug was nearly completely free of any metal debris, the CARC's drain plug had less than usual, and the gearbox's drain plug still had the same amount of metal debris as all the previous oil changes.

Is it possible the lack of debris on the motor's drain plug was the result of switching to Motul ?
Is the motor just starting to get fully broken in and the oil switch made no difference ?
(And the gearbox and CARC are still in process of being broken in ?)
Or it's neither of those; instead it's something else.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

This is a question of which I would hold the opinion of professional mechanics here on the board like Pete Roper and Todd in higher regard than laymen like me, however...

I have worked unprofessionally on engines all my life of various kinds, cars, motorcycles, marine, watercraft, planes and small engines...you get the point...but have always sought out the invaluable sage advice and instruction of professional mechanics along the way.

Almost without exception, most major motorcycle manufacturers will tell you that their engines are not truly broken in until they have over 10,000 miles on them. Hence, what you are describing does not surprise me. I would expect to see a decrease in the level of fine debris as the mileage increases. I think you are on the right track.

Given the amount of horror stories here on the board from engines, gearboxes, and final drives "grenading" from lubricants which do not conform with Moto Guzzi's recommendations, I consider it very wise of you to use the appropriate factory recommended oils. I think in the long run, you will have a long life of your components.

I have always done this with every engine I have owned be it BMW, Ducati, Moto Guzzi, Moto Morini, Minirelli, Bombardier and even Suzuki. (Yes, I was a GSX-R man for awhile - tempted by the Darkside of the Force :lol: )

My mentor, who was an amazing mechanic and taught me a great deal, once told me something I never forgot...

"Comparatively, oil is cheap, and engines are expensive!" I for one, believe him!

I've never regretted spending the few dollars more for recommended lubricants compared to the bitter taste of the expense of premature wear and possible component failure.

I hope some of the true professionals chime in here for you!

 

[Pascal]

Your engine was breaking in...
After a while, no more heavy deposit etc... Has nothing to do with Motul.

I too, use Motul 7100 and my oil is still redish after 4500 miles.
Goos stuff.

 

[lucky phil]

Your engine was breaking in...
After a while, no more heavy deposit etc... Has nothing to do with Motul.

I too, use Motul 7100 and my oil is still redish after 4500 miles.
Goos stuff.

I agree,breaking in. I laughed though when I saw your ref to the oil still being red after 4500 miles and this was considered naturally to be "good". Could just as easily be an indication that the oil is lacking the detergents that keep the engine clean, or about half a dozen other reasons all of which aren't necessarily "good".
Ciao

 

[Pascal]

Well that oil is red colored like tranny fluid...
So yeah, it's a good thing if it stays that way as long as possible.
Red oil for a red blooded machine!

 

[OldJock]

Well if its an oil thread

I was asking questions on WG about the older 2V engines, which do not seem to be nearly so critical of what they run. I hear the 4Vs are very different.

But I got posted this

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil Tests.pdf

I'll be looking into using Royal Purple or Penrite full synth if I can get them in a suitable VI range. Not cheap but I'd rather spend the money than tear down my engine

John

 

[Mi_ka]

Me too got shaken about the Motul stuff - this test shows results for what happens when cold for touching surfaces particularly when starting up from cold which is part of the picture.
It is not addressing high temp high load situations and of course cannot tell anything about what is happening at the crankshaft and rod bearings area that work due to oil forming an hydrodynamic high pressure wedge due to rotational speed (as Pete has posted on a number of educating posts).
However, I was buying similar Motul stuff for my vehicles particularly because I was feeling sure of performance when cold on startup so I was pretty much shaken.

 

[Jlyon99]

I'll be looking into using Royal Purple or Penrite full synth if I can get them in a suitable VI range. Not cheap but I'd rather spend the money than tear down my engine

John

Yes, extremely impressive. I wonder if there are similar tests for the MG recommended brand?

 

[ett]

Well if its an oil thread

I was asking questions on WG about the older 2V engines, which do not seem to be nearly so critical of what they run. I hear the 4Vs are very different.

But I got posted this

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil Tests.pdf

I'll be looking into using Royal Purple or Penrite full synth if I can get them in a suitable VI range. Not cheap but I'd rather spend the money than tear down my engine

John

I have seen that oil test before.
It made me very glad that I use Royal Purple products in my Ford Ranger.

Now if only Royal Purple would make a 10w60 motor oil, along with 85w90 + 80w90 gear oils recommended by MG.
Then I be extremely happy.

Actually if MG specified 80w90 in both the gearbox and CARC in my Griso.
Then I'd buy Royal Purple's 80w90 that only comes in 5 gallon cans; and use it in both my Ford Ranger and Griso.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Guys...really? I cannot believe that in this modern world, people are still being duped by this ridiculous carnival barker trickery. :shock:

It's total B.S. guys!

There are tons of actual studies by chemists and petroleum engineers debunking this so called "test". It has no real world correlation at all.

Here's one quick one...

http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/2011/10 ... ssure.html

If you prefer, Timken has their own disclaimer on their website!

http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/lu ... s/faq.aspx

"Between 1935 and 1972, The Timken Company produced and sold a lubricant test machine that was used to determine the EP (extreme pressure) characteristics of grease and oil lubricants. It became an industry-standard test. A bearing race is mounted on a tapered arbor that is rotating at a high speed. A square, steel test block is then loaded against the rotating race, with the contact area flooded with the test lubricant. The load on the block is increased in increments until the oil film is broken and the spinning race produces a score mark on the test block. The load-value that produces the score is then called the Timken “O.K.” load rating.
 
It was generally assumed that the higher the O.K. value, the more load the lube could hold without the film strength being compromised. However, this is not necessarily the case, and the primary purpose of the test is to determine whether or not the lube has an EP additive. Values higher than 35 lbs. indicate the presence of an EP additive."

So much for the hype and B.S. :geek:


As for me, I tend to belileve that Moto Guzzi specified their choices for lubricants for a reason, and In the unlikely and unfortunate event of some type of failure, I want no doubt cast upon which lubricants I used. Both the Agip/eni and Motul oils mentioned here, meet Moto Guzzi's specifications. Just my two cents worth.

One last item to note, Royal Purple advertises that they rely on their addition of Phosphorus and Zinc as wear additives. Those two elements have been reduced in all other oils for a reason...they will kill your catalytic converter, assuming you have one fitted.

 

[Mi_ka]

Right, this test is a small part of the picture, however such conditions are briefly met when firing up the beast, aren't they?

 

[lucky phil]

Right, this test is a small part of the picture, however such conditions are briefly met when firing up the beast, aren't they?

No they are not actually.
Ciao

 

[lucky phil]

Guys...really? I cannot believe that in this modern world, people are still being duped by this ridiculous carnival barker trickery. :shock:

It's total B.S. guys!

There are tons of actual studies by chemists and petroleum engineers debunking this so called "test". It has no real world correlation at all.

Here's one quick one...

http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/2011/10 ... ssure.html

If you prefer, Timken has their own disclaimer on their website!

http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/lu ... s/faq.aspx

"Between 1935 and 1972, The Timken Company produced and sold a lubricant test machine that was used to determine the EP (extreme pressure) characteristics of grease and oil lubricants. It became an industry-standard test. A bearing race is mounted on a tapered arbor that is rotating at a high speed. A square, steel test block is then loaded against the rotating race, with the contact area flooded with the test lubricant. The load on the block is increased in increments until the oil film is broken and the spinning race produces a score mark on the test block. The load-value that produces the score is then called the Timken “O.K.” load rating.
 
It was generally assumed that the higher the O.K. value, the more load the lube could hold without the film strength being compromised. However, this is not necessarily the case, and the primary purpose of the test is to determine whether or not the lube has an EP additive. Values higher than 35 lbs. indicate the presence of an EP additive."

So much for the hype and B.S. :geek:


As for me, I tend to belileve that Moto Guzzi specified their choices for lubricants for a reason, and In the unlikely and unfortunate event of some type of failure, I want no doubt cast upon which lubricants I used. Both the Agip/eni and Motul oils mentioned here, meet Moto Guzzi's specifications. Just my two cents worth.

One last item to note, Royal Purple advertises that they rely on their addition of Phosphorus and Zinc as wear additives. Those two elements have been reduced in all other oils for a reason...they will kill your catalytic converter, assuming you have one fitted.

Thanks,you got in just before me which has saved me some computer time.This is the same BS test used at car shows buy oil additive vendors to show how wonderful their product is for you engine.
One would imagine that all engines that dont use Royal Purple are on the side of the road or race track in smoking piles.Use your heads people.
Ciao

 

[Pascal]

Doesn't matter which Forum you're in...You'll get that oil thread again and again.
I've been running Motorex and Motul in my 8V and I'll stick with that.
Don't give a crap if some PHD dude tells me otherwise.

It's like the so called "Consensus" in the scientific world tells you that Soy is bad for you...
I don't see the Chinese dying from it. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
But they sure have done a research that tells the opposite!!
For all I know they all are Al Gore butt lickers...

 

[Mi_ka]

Right, this test is a small part of the picture, however such conditions are briefly met when firing up the beast, aren't they?

No they are not actually.
Ciao

I am not saying you are wrong but please elaborate: My feeling is that on the very few first seconds of startup the galleries may be partly drained of oil causing minor starvation to upper engine parts until they fill up and the oil pressure for main bearings is yet inadequate so minor starvation may be happening there too particularly if you start pushing it while still cold riding away and depending on previous run length there may be condensation formed internally in the heads so lubrication will suffer until oil supplywashes condensation away.

 

[ett]

OP here.

Just for fun; I did a little bit of experimenting.
I had saved the used Motul from the oil change at the start of this thread.
With that oil change; I put AGIP back into my Griso 8V.
On the next oil change; I also saved the used AGIP.
I then sent both; Motul and Agip; out for used oil analysis.

Here's the reports and follow-up questions I had for them:
(Clarification for MAKE/MODEL and UNIT ID fields:
They misread my lousy hand writing.
They; or their scanner; read "Griso" as "GT150". And read "Griso 1200 8V" as "ABS".)

Motul:

Larger image: http://www.trimmer.org/~eric/images/griso/uoa/xlarge/motul_uoa_6-27-2010.jpg

Agip:

Large image: http://www.trimmer.org/~eric/images/griso/uoa/xlarge/agip_uoa_6-27-2010.jpg

My question to the lab:

Hello,

Thanks for the quick and excellent lab results !
I have a couple of questions.

1) Did my containers leak ?

2) The AGIP indicated more engine wear than the Motul.
With the AGIP there was one difference in usage.
I had spent one hot (90+ degrees) afternoon on a trip to Philadelphia; and
spent 1 to 2 hours in stop-n-go rush hour traffic.
Could that be the reason for the difference in engine wear ?

Thanks;
--Eric

The lab's response:

Hi, Eric!

First of all, nope, it looks like your containers didn't leak. We had plenty of oil to run all the tests, and there was no oil on the paperwork you sent along. That's all we can tell at this point... we get enough samples around here that do leak a little that one or two more wouldn't stand out to the guy who sorts through them as they come in, but even if yours did dribble a little, it must not have been enough to cause any problems.

As for the wear, these samples were very close... the main differences on the AGIP oil were at aluminum and tin, both reading a few parts per million higher than the Motul sample. On the other hand, iron, copper, and lead were all slightly lower, so it's kind of a wash. The difference in operation might very well explain the high aluminum (pistons) and tin (usually just a trace metal from other alloys), but we can't say for sure that it did. Stop-and-go driving usually shows up at iron first, which was 1 ppm lower on AGIP than on the Motul.

Bottom line is, both of these oils gave you very nice results, with metals reading well below universal averages. Whichever one you decide to go with should work just fine for your GT150. Hope that helps... Let me know if there's anything else we can do for you. Thanks!

 

[dbarb3]

Very low metals, looks like your engine is showing very little wear.

 

[Goodvibes]

Guys...really? I cannot believe that in this modern world, people are still being duped by this ridiculous carnival barker trickery. :shock:

It's total B.S. guys!

Thank you! I was beginning to be concerned that my AGIP/ENI-lubed engine was about to self-destruct if I didn't take prompt corrective action. I must confess, though, that I have endulged with Redline Shockproof in my gearbox and CARC (because a Pepto Bismol-colored oil MUST be better).