• Ciao Guest - You’ve landed at the ultimate Guzzi site. NEW FORUM REGISTRATIONS REQUIRE EMAIL ACTIVATION - CHECK YOUR SPAM FOLDER - Use the CONTACT above if you need help. New to the forum? For all new members, we require ONE post in the Introductions section at the bottom, in order to post in most of the other sections. ALWAYS TRY A SEARCH BEFORE STARTING A NEW TOPIC - Most questions you may have, have likely been already answered. DON'T BE A DRIVE-BY POSTER: As a common courtesy, check back in and reply within 24 hours, or your post will be deleted. Note there's decades of heavily experienced Guzzi professionals on this site, all whom happily give endless amounts of their VALUABLE time for free; BE COURTEOUS AND RESPECTFUL!
  • There is ZERO tolerance on personal attacks and ANY HYPERLINKS to PRODUCT(S) or other competing website(s), including personal pages, social media or other Forums. This ALSO INCLUDES ECU DIAGnostic software, questions and mapping. We work very hard to offer commercially supported products and to keep info relevant here. First offense is a note, second is a warning, third time will get you banned from the site. We don't have the time to chase repeat (and ignorant) offenders. This is NOT a social media platform; It's an ad-free, privately funded website, in small help with user donations. Be sure to see the GTM STORE link above; ALL product purchases help support the site, or you can upgrade your Forum profile or DONATE via the link above.
  • Be sure to see the GTM STORE link also above for our 700+ product inventory, including OEM parts and many of our 100% Made-in-SoCal-USA GTM products and engine kits. In SoCal? Click the SERVICE tab above for the best in service, tires, tuning and installation of our products or custom work, and don't miss our GT MotoCycles® (not) art on the BUILDS tab above. WE'RE HERE ONLINE ONLY - NO PHONE CALLS MADE OR RECEIVED - DO NOT EMAIL AND ASK QUESTIONS OR ASK TO CALL YOU.
  • Like the new V100, GuzziTech is full throttle into the future! We're now running on an all-new server and we've updated our Forum software. The visual differences are obvious, but hopefully you'll notice the super-fast speed. If you notice any glitches or have any issues, please post on the Site Support section at the bottom. If you haven't yet, please upgrade your account which is covered in the Site Support section or via the DONATE tab above, which gives you full site access including the DOWNLOADS section. We really appreciate every $ and your support to keep this site ad-free. Create an account, sign in, upgrade your account, and enjoy. See you on the road in 2024.

Manual skills - why don't kids want to get dirty?

Mike.C

Mike.C

High Miler
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
982
Location
Brisbane
Why is it that experienced motorcycle mechanics who are good at what they do are thin on the ground?

One of the problems is that we (I mean society in general - not you dear reader) no longer value their knowledge in the mistaken belief that it is a menial task. But what do we do when we need them - we hope like hell they can fix our bike even if the parts aren't available because we want to go riding on the weekend, IME a good mechanic always seems to be able to "make it work", a skill which reqires years of experience and knowledge beyond a service manual.

Interesting article at the link.

CLICK HERE

I have a similar issue in my business, which is often dirty and boring, but actually requires a high level of skill to do properly. For a year now, I have been looking for someone to train as a production manager who isn't going to chuck it in in six months and do you think I can find anybody????

Symptom of a sick society in my book, one wonders what we will all do when there is no one left who "makes" or "fixes" stuff, perhaps we will all be staring at a computer screen which in the end will just say "no"!

I for one refuse to particpate in the so called Knowledge Revolution!
 
Agreed.
There are a lot of fitters out there; good at replacing things. The skilled craftsmen are rare species.

I've been in the construction business for a while by now, and do see the same problem all over.
It's all about money, not craftsmanship.
 
I think it's because of computers and video games that teenager's are so lazy these days. Yesterday, I was out in the garage working on my bike for a few hours. Let my 15 year old daughter have three friends over. When I came in I noticed that the power was turned on to the playstation. I asked if they had been playing my Tourist Trophy game, which I had in there from the night before. They said "no, we thought Guitar Hero was in there, but when we turned it on your motorcycle game was in there, and nobody wanted to get up and change the disc!!!" OMG!
 
Maybe it's just me, but where is any meaningful apprentice programs where folks can be trained out of high school? Where can entry level people go? College isn't for everyone, and some people who come out are of little use after all that schooling.

A friend of mine served his apprenticeship in Stuttgart in a gauge factory at the age of fourteen years and finished as a tool and die maker at eighteen years. After an adventurous start here as a German in the post war U.S. He finally retired with a fine home in Huntington Harbor, a dock in front of the house and a forty foot boat tied to the dock. Not bad for a home boy who was starving to death during the war in a small German town.

Other friends are French trained French chefs some who are rather well regarded. Again, these people went through a rather rough apprenticeship where if you screwed up, you got a smack on the back of the head or worse. For some, this was a last chance opportunity. Chefs can be a rather rough bunch.

How does anyone learn the skills today to fix stuff or build something from near nothing these days?

Why fail when you can dispose of and replace? Where has our heavy manufacturing gone?

As an retired overpaid card changer with Verizon with forty one years on the job I didn't see anyone coming in behind me who could do what I could do when it came to resolving some rather pesky problems. Rather, people do things remotely, frequently screw stuff up, with no consequence and maintenance is left to wonder what happened when everything was OK a few hours ago. No one knows how to problem solve or do what for me, was called step by step trouble shooting.

Oh well, might as well throw in the towel and go back to my computer game.
 
Rather long, so I skimmed it... but got the gist of it. Funny that a good friend of mine, with similar credentials to the author, has a shop in the same area... but it's a legit storefront/shop. I applaud people with that mindset after schooling. Perhaps it takes that knowledge to grasp it(?). I grew up amongst some brilliant mechanics... and yes, I knew a few "Joe's Garage" types as well. Still do. ;)

I echo the postings above. My wife's boys show little interest in the "how-to's" that I was so curious to as a kid. Hell, I tore motors apart at 8 yrs. old. Never got them back together properly though... but it sure was fun trying. I think we've "safety-ed" our World into the current state it's in. Not allowing kids to get their hands dirty in "dangerous" situations, has made a world of soft-handed computer 'bots.

Brian, there AMI & MMI, but "graduates" of those places come out with marginal know-how at best. There are few exceptions of course... and I personally know a few. One being Nicky Hayden's current MotoGP Manager, who graduated MMI Phoenix.
 
The author also makes a good case for the value of the lessons learned while doing manual tasks.....often not appreciated by the academic types who become leaders....also a problem in our computer-oreinted world, where kids get the idea that "do-overs" are not a problem.
A lot of that kind of stuff used to be just part of life, like cutting firewood, and digging ditches or plowing fields. In those experiences you usually learned to be efficient, and not do stupid things, because there were consequences.
 
I agree, I can remember a certain go kart that was purchased under clandestine conditions and kept at a mates place (didn't I cop a hiding when it was discovered :p ). This little beauty had a Honda XL something engine and a welded steel tube frame, no brakes, a hand shift via a lever to the original gear shift, and it was in bits more than it was in one piece, but it was the experiences we had with it that taught me how bike engines worked, what all the bits inside were and how to put them back together - without a tourque wrench!!!

Thing is that much of this is a personal thing, I am to this day an incurable fiddler, and am always getting into trouble for taking things apart (the latest lunacy was the Breva's instrument panel :blink: ). I am sure that many bike nuts are the same,especially in Guzzi Land, although it seems that there is a growing trend to what I call "detached ownership" probably brought on by a lack of the life skills and experiences that you describe.

I think that it is going to be a problem - if for example the ranks of the competant Guzzi mechanics were to decline more than they have already, what then? Do we just accept that when the warranty runs out and we might have to actually fix the bike rather than expecting the manufacturer to replace some parts, we will dispose of it and get a new one - I think not.

But to keep them running is and always will require, as I suggested in the 1st post a level of skill that goes beyond a service manual, and that can only be obtained through experience. Problem is that who can blame the young bloke (or girl for that matter) who decides against motorcycle mechanics because it is not seen as a valuable profession and is declining into a glorified parts installer by the motorcycling public, who in doing so are digging the grave of the motorcycle in the form that we know and love - strong words, but I see it every day in parallels within my business.
 
Re:Manual skills - why don't kids want to get dirt

Mike/Holt/Todd: Just read this post, unfortunately it's all true. I'm 45 years old and have been a Helicopter mechanic for over 20 years. I work for one of the largest civil helicopter companies in the world and out of all the younger guys doing what I do (say 30 and younger) easily 50% of them are what I call ' Wankers'. Soft handed Idiots that don't know what to do when the shit hits the fan, and when it does do nothing more than show a passing interest in how to deal with it. On a daily basis with the odd exception they are perfectly happy to do nothing more than parts change, and let the 'old f***' (me) and one other 25 yr. old anomoly take care of all the difficult nasty jobs that require thought. (troubleshooting...what do you mean?). I often wonder what will become of this world when it is left to the likes of them. You are correct Holt all they seem to care about is how much they get paid and that they can get out the door at quitting time on the dot! Unfortunately the attitude I have come to adopt is F*** 'em, they will have to pay the piper one day and for the time being they ensure my continued employment at an adequate level of renumeration. Because I Can! They tell BS stories about it over coffee!
FBC
 
Re:Manual skills - why don't kids want to get dirt

Finally got around to finishing the article. The author doesn't actually blame kids nowadays, he blames society for encouraging them to get a "virtual" job. (You know, one of those with titles/descriptions that supposedly mean something only to those groomed to do the job.)

At this point in my, ahem, career, I'd happily follow the author in his footsteps, only I'm a bit of a victim of that whole system, having been trained for a job of which there are hardly anymore.
 
Re:Manual skills - why don't kids want to get dirt

Until I read this thread, I thought this problem was mostly a US problem. Sad to see that it is worldwide. I do find it somewhat troubling that even though less people seem to want to develop the skill set required to be a good mechanic (of any sort) or do (ugh) manual labor/farm work, they don't seem to want to pay anyone a fair wage to do it for them either. I once had the misfortune of being involved in a conversation with a gentleman (term used loosely), that stated "Noone that works with their hands is worth more than ten dollars an hour." He seemed to believe that his $25/hour rate was fine for working pushing papers though. It was tough to watch the pipe fitters and steel workers explain the facts of life to him. I figure that someday after we reach a great shortage of talent, and there are only five people left in the world that can fix or build anything, the rest of the population will take note, but probably not even then. Getting your hands dirty is for the poor ignorant fellow down the street, not me or my kid seems to be the prevailing attitude and it will be a hard one to shake.



Ed
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re:Manual skills - why don't kids want to get dirt

for the last 5 years, i have been involved in a competition robotics program, the last two of which have been mentoring/co-coaching. (though not anymore). Im a manual/CNC machinist, with some engine experience, both automotive and aero. It's been great, because you have 6 weeks to design a 150+ lb competition machine, and build the entire thing from scratch, including pneumatically operated apendeges, shifting transmissions and gearboxes, drivetrains, welding structure, electronics, programming, etc. And of course, designing something to work as best it can within the constraints of the rules, and something that can be built/fixed in a very small amount of time.

I have had students coming to me in this program, (this is a high school program, BTW) Who dont know how to tell time on a mechanical clock, and dont know how to use a ruler. This is serious stuff.

These people will make 3x as much money as i will in their life, and never even thread a nut onto a bolt after they leave.

Im not satisfied until im the best at everything i do, nor am i satisfied until i understand how everything works, inside and out. It seems like common sense to me, but it blows my mind how nobody cares what makes stuff happen as long as it works when they push the button. Let alone, being able to make it yourself.

Im 19 years old.
 
Re:Manual skills - why don't kids want to get dirt

Spaceclam wrote:
for the last 5 years, i have been involved in a competition robotics program, the last two of which have been mentoring/co-coaching. (though not anymore). Im a manual/CNC machinist, with some engine experience, both automotive and aero. It's been great, because you have 6 weeks to design a 150+ lb competition machine, and build the entire thing from scratch, including pneumatically operated appendages, shifting transmissions and gearboxes, drive trains, welding structure, electronics, programming, etc. And of course, designing something to work as best it can within the constraints of the rules, and something that can be built/fixed in a very small amount of time.

Im 19 years old.
Click to expand...

You must be involved with the F.I.R.S.T. program. Great program - my step-son was involved during high school and is now studying for an Engineering Degree and one brother-in-law is also a CNC machinist. Step-son is an interesting dichotomy. Although he enjoyed robotics, he has no interest in working on his motorcycle - it is simply a vehicle for getting from point A to B. Both his mother and I enjoy the smell of grease and working on (some of) our vehicles (like her 1957 Chevy). It is nice to have theoretical knowledge, but if you cannot put it to work in the real world, what is the use? Oh yeah, you could design fairings for motorcycles that block access and have to be removed in order to get to the oil dipstick :(
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top