My bike pings.

[Spaceclam]

So i had a thread on the WG forums, which was posted because of the volume of replies/people. However, it seems that it's run out of steam a little bit. Im looking for suggestions. It has been brought to my attention that all the modern bikes ping a little bit, but i run into many people riding modern carc guzzis who have never had theirs ping, even with stock fueling.

My bike is an 07 griso, but it seems that any information here would apply to any of the modern 2v mills.

The valves are good, the TBs are good, the TPS is good, octane booster doesnt help, no matter how much is used. It's not a lean condition, as the fueling has been corrected. Bedding the temp sensor in thermal mastic doesnt help. Cooler plugs make no difference. Gas brand doesnt make any difference either.

The bike starts fine, and runs great except when it pings. When it does, it's ALWAYS between 4 and 5k rpm, under high loads. It always pings above 80 degrees, but aside from that, sometimes it pings, other times not. It's random. Everything points to a hot spot, espeically since pulling it hard once seems to increase the likelyhood of it beginning to ping.

the rev range at which it pings coincides with a NOTICEABLE drop in the engine's torque, pinging or not. It's much stronger after the fueling corrections, but it has to be a good 3 or 4 ft lbs.

I have yet to do a leakdown test or pull the heads to inspect things with my own eyes, but im running out of other options. ECU is getting swapped just to check.

Does anyone have any ideas? I am considering a thermal coat on the head portion of the combustion chamber, since as we all know, hemis get hot. Does anyone have experience with coatings?

Im also considering some head work including oversized valves, since if it's a hot spot, better flow should help reduce heat as well (of course, i wouldnt mind the extra power). I would even consider swapping the engine for a 1200 sport engine, with some cash to compensate. Any interest?

It's not that another engine wont ping, because it might. But everyone else's engines run fine after fueling corrections, and mine does not. So the point in swapping the engine would be to make the problem more correctable.

Anything i havent thought of?

 

[Penis Rotor]

Methinks the next step is to pull the heads off and check the squish as mentioned in the other thread.

Do the ECU swap first though just to rule it out.

Pete

 

[GuzziMoto]

What did you use to adjust the fueling?
Mine pings as well but I have a PCV on the way that others have reported positive results as far as the pinging goes. The dealer swapped ECUs and it made no difference for me.
Ceramic coating the top of the piston and the head may help things. Also setting the deck height and squish may help. These things are easy to do at the same time while it is apart. But first I would like to hear how you corrected the fueling. Did you get a PCV with the O2 delete?

 

[Spaceclam]

Yeah, i have the PCV, with a reflashed ECU. My pinging isn't caused by fuel, it's pretty clear. Im running rich now and it still pings like crazy. Either it's ignition, or it's a hot spot.

That's kind of the plan. If i take the heads off, they are getting big valves (should help it breathe, thus keep it cooler) and it would also get coated.

OR

if the cost comes close, and it becomes worth it, i would like to swap my engine out for a norge/sport 12 motor. Do away with the pinging, add a couple HP, and still leave the option for big valves later for even better performance.

 

[Lupo]

I say buy your fuel at a gas station that has a large volume of affluent customers. Why do I say this? I just got a full load of crap "high octane" fuel and I thought I had a rocker loosen until I figured it was crap fuel. The station I used was a little out of the way place that I'm probably the last one to have used the high octane stuff(weeks ago). Prices of fuel and ECUs make it so most people now only use Regular grade and the good stuff goes bad. Just my opinion.

 

[guzzibob]

if the cost comes close, and it becomes worth it, i would like to swap my engine out for a norge/sport 12 motor. Do away with the pinging, add a couple HP, and still leave the option for big valves later for even better performance.

If you are thinking that the 1200 motor doesn't ping-think again, they do, or at least in some cases they do.

 

[Spaceclam]

I would expect it to ping as well, but only due to a lean condition, which is much more easily correctable, using a PCV.

I have heard of others who have had pinging problems, but none who's problems stemmed from a hot spot somewhere, that required expensive surgery to correct. Clearly, there's something different with my engine such that correcting fueling solves everyone's problems except mine. So the question becomes, do i do surgery on my engine, or do i just replace it with another one, which is bigger?

As for the gas stations, i have tried many different gas stations, in many different areas. Some rich, others not. At this point, im 100% sure it's not the gas.

 

[draidt]

I'll be dismissed as offering a snake oil attempt at a fix for you but here goes before you rip into the innards of your motor try this less then 20 dollar attempt. Get a set of iridium plugs. I use NGK's in all my Guzzis, Norge,V7C and 83 SP. When the Norge had less then 300 miles on it, it got them. Almost 10,000 on it now and nary a ping (NONE), same with the Classic and never a ping. My 83 came with them and the PO swears by them uses them in all his 6 bikes including his 125 Honda Moto Giro race bike and has a funny habit of podium finishes. I am just telling you this fact to illustrate he knows his stuff so to say.
Let the arrows and barbs fly. :evil:

 

[GTM®]

So i had a thread on the WG forums, which was posted because of the volume of replies/people.

You want quantity or quality?

It's not that another engine wont ping, because it might. But everyone else's engines run fine after fueling corrections, and mine does not.

No might about it, and your second line is simply not true. I can get *any* '00+ F.I. 2V (or new 4V) Guzzi engine to ping when the conditions are conducive; i.e. high-load, high-heat, and large throttle openings at lower RPMs. If it's pinging, downshift.
Also, you are not yet running AutoTune, and 'seat-of-pants' revisions often prove futile without real-time AFR readings/documentation... I know you're somewhat knowledgeable, but trust me on this one.
Otherwise, try Dan's suggestion above as another cheap(er), alternative... or I'd suggest (once you add AT), finding 100 octane unleaded, and trying it. It's resolved 95% of ping issues on my V11 Sport motor at the track, in all but 100+ d F days. 100 octane is available at the pump in SM for $9~10/gallon.
I've been told by (my good friend) Nicky Hayden's current team manager/head wrench (and former Guzzi wrench too BTW), if you're willing to run the higher octane fuel, up to an additional 3 degrees of advance can resolve it.
Your references to your dirt-bike being 13:1 CR is liquid-cooled, yes? On our air-cooled motors, 95+ d F days is likely bringing excessive heat-soaking into play here. Your complaint of late has been the result of high air temps I believe, and your "on-ramp" test to being in only minutes from your house, then a short freeway run will bring it on, yes?
I've spoken to Mike Rich (at length) several times about "true" CR with these motors, and he has had pistons made that "Raises Actual Compression to 10.25:1" on the last generation 2V'ers.
If you want to spend money on coatings, I can connect you with a former Guzzista who works for one of the best in the U.S. in coating engine internals.
There was a Norge motor on eBay for ~$1000, but that won't solve your problem, as Bob says above, they ping too.
For the record, in another few weeks when the temps drop, all of this will be over anyway.
I don't think it's your ECU, but I'll see you later this morning to find out... though I'm not sure what you want to do with the stock 02-sensor and lean fueling it will create. I'll check/set your TPS again then as well for you... you're welcome.

 

[Spaceclam]

I dont think its the ECU either, but im running out of stuff to try before surgery comes into play.

Ill try some racing fuel just to see, but when it pings, it pings A LOT. So much that i am scared of ruining my motor. It's not always high temps either. Yesterday, on the way back from my GFs house, it was 73 degrees according to my dash (felt about right). Near my house, i accelerated to about 85 to pass a truck. with a GENTLE roll on and... It pinged. Not quite seriously, but certainly not just a little bit. If i have trouble passing a semi truck on a 1100 CC motorcycle, there's something wrong.

60-80% throttle at 4k rpm shouldn't be too much load or too little rpm. It's not letting it rev certainly, but it's not lugging it either. IT will ping all the way up to 5k, where it abruptly stops. The seat of the pants revisions have all been richening, in an effort to reduce this condition.Im going back to your map, since more fuel doenst help.

There's no hurt in posting on other forums as well. I got a few suggestions on that forum i hadn't thought of... Plus i leaned about the heat ranges of spark plugs. Something i had never messed with before, so it was worth my while.

a little pinging isnt a problem. If it were ONLY at high temps, it wouldnt be problem either. But it's not. It's not a little pinging, its a LOT of pinging. It has pinged when it's as cold as 65 degrees outside, although that isn't a common occurance. If it pinged like it did at 65 degrees, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because that's good enough that it's not a problem.

Again, not to say that other motors WONT ping, possibly even when corrected. But based on other member's inputs, as well as responses in person, the pinging is REALLY MINIMAL although it doesnt always go completely away.

Seeing as the temperatures hover around 80 degrees in the san fernando valley for 9 months out of the year, this problem NEEDS to be corrected, or at least it needs to get better.

 

[GuzziMoto]

I would have to agree with the others. A new motor (especially a 2v 1200 motor) is likely to do the same thing. It seems to be rider related (although fuel quality regionally could be a contributer). I say this because my Griso pings (badly), but when I let others test ride it to see what I mean it does not ping. I am not saying to do nothing, I just think that determining and addressing the cause will have more and better results then a different motor. I think the AutoTune is a good idea. And your idea to have the head coated (along with the piston) is a good one. It may also be timing related, but timing is not easily adjustable and I have no reason to think it is timing except for my belief that most bikes have too much timing stock in order to meet emissions.
If I were you (and in a way I am is my bike does the same thing) I would/am getting the whole PCV package with ECU mod AND AutoTune, if that does not cure the pinging my next step is likely to look at thermal coatings. I would (have)consider trying different spark plugs, but they did not help me. On my bike it seems to be a temp issue and if the ECU/PCV/AutoTune package does not help then Thermal coatings are my next choice.
In the mean time I have found that it is easy to ride around the pinging most of the time, and for when it does ping it seems to do no harm (it just sounds bad).

 

[Spaceclam]

So thanks to my brother's being an idiot, i no longer have an o2 sensor with which to try a non-reflashed computer.

However, i borrowed a buddy's IR gun, and took the bike for a freeway jaunt. It's about 65 degrees outside. The left cylinder measured 265 at the plug, the right 270. I dont know how accurate these are, but it was measured at 8 inches, from various angles, focused on the same point. Each jug varied (depending on the angle) by about a degree. Just to see, i pointed it at my tongue and it read 88 degrees, so it may be a little low.

So i believe my head temps are between 265 and probably 280, and this is AFTER the fueling corrections. This sounds too high, but i dont know what it really should be. Though on a hot day, i would imagine i could see temps close to 300F. The fact that both cylinders are so close suggests that a leakdown or compression test will reveal nothing, unless both jugs have the same problem, to the same degree.

I do remember from working on air cooled aircraft engines, 230-240 was usually about average. Although these engines are VERY similar in nearly all respects, they arent the same.

 

[dloftus]

I have one of those IR guns too and was going to do the test you just described but for a different reason. I wanted to see the difference in temp between the engine temp sensor on vdsts and what the cylinders read on the IR sensor. I'll let you know the results. For what it's worth my bike pings too (07 Griso 2V) when I'm accelerating. I honestly didn't pay much attention to it though as I figured it was just an air cooled thing. I've gone so long in between the 3 bikes I owned I honestly couldn't remember if they pinged or not.

 

[Spaceclam]

has your bike had the fueling corrected?

 

[dloftus]

No, the fueling hasn't been corrected.

I just went for a 9 mile ride in 41F weather. At the end I used a IR gun from about 3 inches away from the cylinder and it read 227F. That was on the fins behind the outside plugs. Not sure if temperatures are linear but if you're riding in 80F sounds like 260-270F is reasonable.

Additionally, in this cold weather I tried a couple WOT accelerations from 3k and 4k RPMs and there was no pinging.

 

[Spaceclam]

Thanks. When you get the chance, could you try it from 4-5k?

 

[bsanut]

YAK!

My '07 Griso is still pretty stock (Agostini silencer only) and it's never pinged once. Why not? Todd's Mods are paid for but I haven't gotten around to taking the ECU out yet. The bike runs pretty fine except for the backfiring.

My machine is still under warranty and I'd damn sure be griping to the dealer-that-be if it pinged like that. Isn't there some kind of anti-knock sensor that's supposed to retard ignition if it happens? Pinging DOES eventually cause big damage...

Am I just lucky?

Joe

 

[john zibell]

YAK!

My '07 Griso is still pretty stock (Agostini silencer only) and it's never pinged once. Why not? Todd's Mods are paid for but I haven't gotten around to taking the ECU out yet. The bike runs pretty fine except for the backfiring.

My machine is still under warranty and I'd damn sure be griping to the dealer-that-be if it pinged like that. Isn't there some kind of anti-knock sensor that's supposed to retard ignition if it happens? Pinging DOES eventually cause big damage...

Am I just lucky?

Joe

Motorcycle systems aren't sophisticated enough to have anti-knock sensors. Or is it that the manufactures are too cheap to use them, air mass sensors, and vacuum sensors. The more I read this, I think the cam position sensor gap may be to large, thus retarding the timing etc. Timing may be retarded enough that the fuel ignites before the spark fires.

 

[dloftus]

Thanks. When you get the chance, could you try it from 4-5k?

Didn't get a chance to try and make it ping again (traffic) but I did spend some more time pointing the IR sensor at the cylinder. On the engine temp sensor I was getting about 160F, on different spots on the head I could get anywhere from 200F to 300F when pointing at the spark plug. I was holding the sensor really close to get as small a spot as possible. I think the emissivity is .98 on mine and it's not adjustable.

I know my bike pings in the warmer weather but it never seemed bad enough to be concerned about it.

 

[GuzziMoto]

Retarding the timing would likely reduce or stop the pinging if timing was at all to blame. One possible cause that is timing related is if the plug fires too soon then combustion chamber pressure can build too fast before the piston is on its way down and the pressure/heat can cause the air/fuel mixture to auto-ignite. If the plug does not ignite the mixture on time then compression from the piston alone will not be enough to ignite the mixture. It does in diesel engines but their compression ratio is much higher.
Some bikes ping and others do not. But as I mentioned before, every time I took the bike to my dealer they could not make it ping. Whether this means my dealer is crap and/or it is the way I ride it that makes it ping I don't know (actually I'm pretty sure both are true) but I gave up trying to get them to "fix" it as it was more trouble then it is worth. Yes it is true that detonation can be bad, but my bike has been pinging for over three years with no issues. And I have been known to make it ping a lot.
Mine pings a lot and it appears to be temp related. Mixture is one thing that can contribute to elevated temps and thus be a cause. Failing that, the ceramic coating idea may help. But first I will try the PCV with AutoTune and O2 sensor delete.