Norge 2011 Cold start issue

[evo]

Howdy all.
Well I've just clocked up 1000kms on the old girl today. Picked it up after my first 900 odd km ride down to see my mate TonyM (see recent thread by me on this ride). Steve had the bike for just over a week and has done a complete first service and has run into a small issue. The bike is difficult to start when cold. Steve is going to contact MG about this as there is no special cold start procedure now days as its all done electronically. Basically, the bike takes two to three starts to get going, runs a little ruff at first but settles down soon enuf. Once she's up to running temperature she's start first go every go, its only cold starting that is the issue. Any thoughts?
Since the service its idling now like a dream, prior it was ruff, I kept feeling it was going to stall, but not now. Throttle boddies have been turned as well as valve clearances done.
Rode it home in the dark tonight for the first time and found it really hard to read the clock time, av fuel etc, I'll have to go into settings to see if I can change the background lighting somehow as it seems ridiculous to have it that way.
Other than that I took it up Macquarie Pass today, two up and it feels like a toy after the FJR1300 2009 model. I can't believe that a bike that weighs only 30kgs or so less than the FJR can feel so light in the twisties.
Those front brakes are just awesome as well, as good as the ZX14 that I had if not better
Look forward to hearing if anyone else has had the "cold start" issue and if they cured it.
Till next time.... safe riding :silly:

 

[john zibell]

I'd check to see if the temperature sensors are in range. With VDSTS this is easy enough to accomplish in the dashboard mode. I'd say the engine sensor is reading high (actual temperature is lower than the sensor is reporting), but that is just my guess.

 

[evo]

I'd check to see if the temperature sensors are in range. With VDSTS this is easy enough to accomplish in the dashboard mode. I'd say the engine sensor is reading high (actual temperature is lower than the sensor is reporting), but that is just my guess.

So your saying check the "actual" OAT v's the "indicated" OAT? and if they are out the sensor needs replacing?

 

[john zibell]

I'd check to see if the temperature sensors are in range. With VDSTS this is easy enough to accomplish in the dashboard mode. I'd say the engine sensor is reading high (actual temperature is lower than the sensor is reporting), but that is just my guess.

So your saying check the "actual" OAT v's the "indicated" OAT? and if they are out the sensor needs replacing?

Yes. Just because you get a reading doesn't make it correct, and it won't show as a fault since there is a reading. Usually if it is within 10 degrees of actual, it shouldn't cause a problem. I checked a guys Norge because he complained of poor fuel mileage. On a cold engine and 70 degrees F ambient, the engine temp sensor was reporting 30 degrees F. A forty degree colder reading sure will enrichen a mix. I'm thinking yours is reading the other way, causing an overly lean mix which would result in hard starting.

 

[evo]

Thanks John,
this site is rich with help its great.
I have forwarded your suggestions on to my mechanic. I'll let you know his thoughts.

cheers

 

[PP-1753]

Evo,

Two things come to mind:
- Valve Clearances; and
- TPS;

They need to be done in this order and when the engine is cold for the first and when the engine is hot for the second. If done out of order, it's start again territory. Everything else is automatic.

Silly question, but did your mechanic have the air box out, or disconnect the hose to the stepper motor? This will also have the same result and is how a few of us have stopped the backfiring on the overrun. The hose is on the RHS and runs from the stepper motor on the plate between the throttle bodies, and goes up to the air-box next to the RH throttle body. If this is off it will be hard to start without any throttle (just give it a little) and won't idle until some warmth gets into the combustion chambers. After that it will idle be lower.

 

[evo]

Hi Tony,
have sent the info over to the Mechanic, he's very very good I'm sure he's done everything right will keep you posted

 

[evo]

Ok,
just a follow up because this is driving me mad.
The bike definitely has a cold start issue, AND its not just when totally cold. I have taken it out for a ride on the last couple of days and when I stop for more than 10 or 15 minutes and the bike cools down, it won't idle. I have to blip the throttle to get it going. After less than a couple of minutes with the engine running, its fine, its only with a cold start or after cooling down, but I don't have to stop it for long for the problem to raise it's ugly head.. I'm dropping the bike back to the mechanic on Wednesday and leaving it with him for a week so he can look at it.

The workshop told me they have contacted MG and was advised "don't worry too much its a characteristic of the bike" WTF are they kidding? I rode with another guy had the 2012 Norge and he has no starting issues at all. I'm sure it will be sorted, its sounding like a stepping motor come temp sensor issue to me, but I don't have the tools to sus it out and it is still under warranty so I don't want to mess that up either.

As noted in one of my other posts, when I first got the bike, we noted that the breather tube had come off and was floating around the engine bay. This was put on at the first service but after doing 300kms on the bike, I noted that the tube had about 2" of oil in it. After 400kms its now got a lot more in the tube? Not sure if this is normal for a new bike. I've advised the mechanic he'll look at it when I drop the bike in.

Also noted that the cover for the rear suspension adjustment has a cracked nipple. Its only hanging on by a thread. That's the little protruding plastic bit that goes into like a rubber grommet type connection. I've only removed this panel once this weekend because I had the Mrs on the back and needed to tighten up the suspension. Surely this will be replaced under warranty as well, Its only been off during service and once with me.

I'll keep you posted re the cold start issue so anyone else having this will be a little wiser, but it sure takes the sting out of what is otherwise a great ride....

 

[john zibell]

Your latest posts hints to an oil over full condition. Yes you will get some oil in the drain tube, but your amounts seem on the high side. You should probably get 2-4 inches of oil in the tube with 6,000 miles. The extra oil in the airbox can contaminate the throttle bodies, and possibly mess up the line to the stepper motor. Pete Roper has pointed this out several times. Have your mechanic lower the oil lever to about half way between the add and full marks. Also clean the throttle bodies and clean the air line from the airbox to the stepper motor.

 

[evo]

Thanks John,
will do cheers :mrgreen:

 

[dddd]

Ok,
just a follow up because this is driving me mad.
The bike definitely has a cold start issue, AND its not just when totally cold. I have taken it out for a ride on the last couple of days and when I stop for more than 10 or 15 minutes and the bike cools down, it won't idle. I have to blip the throttle to get it going. After less than a couple of minutes with the engine running, its fine, its only with a cold start or after cooling down, but I don't have to stop it for long for the problem to raise it's ugly head.. I'm dropping the bike back to the mechanic on Wednesday and leaving it with him for a week so he can look at it.

The workshop told me they have contacted MG and was advised "don't worry too much its a characteristic of the bike" WTF are they kidding? I rode with another guy had the 2012 Norge and he has no starting issues at all. I'm sure it will be sorted, its sounding like a stepping motor come temp sensor issue to me, but I don't have the tools to sus it out and it is still under warranty so I don't want to mess that up either.

As noted in one of my other posts, when I first got the bike, we noted that the breather tube had come off and was floating around the engine bay. This was put on at the first service but after doing 300kms on the bike, I noted that the tube had about 2" of oil in it. After 400kms its now got a lot more in the tube? Not sure if this is normal for a new bike. I've advised the mechanic he'll look at it when I drop the bike in.

Also noted that the cover for the rear suspension adjustment has a cracked nipple. Its only hanging on by a thread. That's the little protruding plastic bit that goes into like a rubber grommet type connection. I've only removed this panel once this weekend because I had the Mrs on the back and needed to tighten up the suspension. Surely this will be replaced under warranty as well, Its only been off during service and once with me.

I'll keep you posted re the cold start issue so anyone else having this will be a little wiser, but it sure takes the sting out of what is otherwise a great ride....

Just a follow up on the comment about oil in the drain tube and the possibility of it being part of your cold start problem. As I have previously mentioned, my new Norge came from the dealer over-filled, approximately 1/4". At the time I discovered this, there was already some 2 1/2" of oil in the drain tube. At this time I syphoned some oil out to bring it back to the correct level. I have since done approximately 350 kms and have just checked the oil in the tube and the oil level is now out of sight, i.e. at least 14"-15" of oil in the tube. However my bike still starts fine, hot or cold. I am hoping that this large quantity of oil (and therefore blow-by) is typical during the running in procedure. Can anyone comment on this?

 

[Brian UK]

Sounds like your workshop is taking the piss to me, MG would never say it was a characteristic of the bike.
Sticking stepper motor would be my bet. Temp sensors are generally more reliable.

 

[evo]

Sounds like your workshop is taking the piss to me, MG would never say it was a characteristic of the bike.
Sticking stepper motor would be my bet. Temp sensors are generally more reliable.

Hi Brian,
thanks for the reply, I've known my mechanic for many years, he's looked after me really well and I get on well with him, if he's taking the piss I'd be really surprised, I trust him very much.

The bike went in last Wednesday, I've told him I don't want it back until its cured, warranty issue. I've not heard from him but I'll call him tomorrow and get a progress report and report back here so others benefit from my experience. Great forum btw, hardly any flames in here.

 

[evo]

Follow up for anyone interested.

My mechanic pulled the injectors out and cleaned them. I rang today and he tells me its starts a treat now. Apparently the bike had been PD'd a year ago and then just sat, he believes "old fuel" in the injectors was the issue and it was clogging it up.
I'll go pick the bike up in a few days and time will tell. I'm hoping it was the issue and will be interested to see how it runs now as I thought it was smooth prior.

cheers

ps, thanks for all the replies

 

[evo]

Follow up..
Picked up the Norge today, and the mechanic told me it was clogged injectors. Starts first time every time so far no issues, also, no more back firing on throttle off, so.... Let me ride it for a few days and I'll report back.

 

[ralf z]

Hey evo, great to hear its sorted...

 

[evo]

Hey evo, great to hear its sorted...

Hey mate, thanks, time will tell. Took her through the National park today sweet as.... I'll post a report on my next long ride and post some pics as well. I'm loving it so far...

 

[P.odono76a]

I am also experiencing a cold start issue on my 2012 Norge.Acts lean on start up,idle wanders,then will run rough until thoroughly warmed up.It's been back to the shop to be checked out on the computer,nothing notable identified.Out of frustration the mechanic changed the O2 sensors which accomplished nothing.I'm starting to believe that Moto Guzzi is not all that adept at creating fuel maps.I been through a similar excerise to clean up the running on my 2003 Rosso Corsa.Power Commander III and a dyno session cured that.I'm thinking the Norge will be treated to some of the same Todd Eagan black box magic to exocise the demons.Other than this minor anomoly,Great Bike!

 

[john zibell]

I am also experiencing a cold start issue on my 2012 Norge.Acts lean on start up,idle wanders,then will run rough until thoroughly warmed up.It's been back to the shop to be checked out on the computer,nothing notable identified.Out of frustration the mechanic changed the O2 sensors which accomplished nothing.I'm starting to believe that Moto Guzzi is not all that adept at creating fuel maps.I been through a similar excerise to clean up the running on my 2003 Rosso Corsa.Power Commander III and a dyno session cured that.I'm thinking the Norge will be treated to some of the same Todd Eagan black box magic to exocise the demons.Other than this minor anomoly,Great Bike!

If you can, find someone with VDSTS. Look in dashboard mode at the temperature sensor readouts. I suspect a sensor is still working, but not reporting the temperature correctly, that is, the sensor is out of range.

 

[evo]

Thanks John,
new stepper motor has arrived, will be installed soon, I'll be sure to report back on this issue :silly: