Odyssey Battery charging

[Drumnagorrach]

This is the first winter, that I have owned my old Cali,the previous owner has fitted an Odyssey battery. I can vaguely remember something about ,not useing an optimate charger ,constantly connected and maintaining the voltage.
I have a charger that automatically maintains the voltage ,it has settings for bike and sealed batteries,will it damage the odyssey ?
I ask ,because I believe a lot of Guzzi's have them fitted.
Cheers
Lee

 

[gstallons]

I would contact Odyssey directly to see what they recommend.

 

[ghezzi]

These comments are a little off topic but still very relevant.
I believe Optimate make 2 different sized chargers, both with a min & max range of batteries they can charge.
The larger charger (for cars etc) may be too big for some of the smaller bike batteries. Check the A/h numbers.

I purchased an Odyssey years ago for my Cali, believing it was a GELL battery. Bike has long been sold.
I now sell Yuasa batteries and have done some research ...............

A true GELL battery is designed for military use, it will not leak with a bullet hole in it. However it is not well suited to life as an automotive battery as they don't hold very high CCA's (Cold Cranking Amps). Gell are generally described as "Deep Cycle" units and will recharge many times over from dead flat. Auto batteries will lose some of their efficiency if you let them go flat.

BMW offer a real (Exide) Gell option on some models, but they need a 19A/h Gell to replace a 14A/h AGM battery, the Gell needs to be that big just to start the beast.

Most batteries advertised as GELL are only AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat), they still have ordinary battery acid in them, its just that the air gap between the plates is lined with a glass fibre mat that will absorb sulphuric acid.

One company falsely advertises their so called gell battery by drilling holes in it and showing no leaks. If they really did have acid in it in the first place, it would take some time before it started leaking. But it will leak.

I currently have a Shorai Lithium battery in my Bellagio, it can only be charged with a lithium battery charger.

Cheers

 

[OldJock]

Interesting Ghezzi. You sort of turned what I know on the head. I have Yuasa gel battery in my Ducati (or they claim its Gel).

As far as I'm aware the AGM is a better option for a motorcycle as its going to be smaller and very few people will totally flatten their batteries. AGM are better than standard liquid electrolite type and can stand deeper discharging and give higher CCA. A lot do go down the standard liquid "lawnmower" battery route but if you have seen the damage that one of these batteries can do to the rest of your components long term, if the breather is not 100%, I reckon you'd stay away. Not to even mention what a cracked one would do hmy:

As far as charging the info I have is an Optimate will do fine if your only floating or using it just to top up. However if you do deep discharge an AGM you will need a larger than normal current flow to get them back up to full charge.

Another thing I got from Shorai was a normal lead acid charger was ok to use on their Lithium Iron batteries providing it did not have a de-sulphating mode (or that mode could be switched off).

Just my info. I regularly float my PC 680 with a similar type charger have been doing for a few years now and its not been a problem.

Only other advice I'd give is if the bike lies outside in prolonged below freezing conditions I'd take it inside. Cold they can stand below freezing they do not generally take too kindly to.

John

 

[kiwi dave]

However if you do deep discharge an AGM you will need a larger than normal current flow to get them back up to full charge.

I'm curious how one can provide a "larger than normal current". On all the battery chargers I have, either the charging rate is set automatically by the "intelligent" charger, or is simply determined by the battery itself and the current capacity of the charger; as it charges the current is reduced.

So if you deep discharge an AGM battery, can you just not charge it for longer to achieve the full charge? Or should you provide more voltage to force more current into the battery?

Also, It seems to me that an AGM battery is really just a lead acid battery with the glass mat holding the acid, so why should this vary from a standard lead-acid battery?

 

[Will]

Before I sold it I had an Odyssey on my Le Mans for about 3 years and never had to charge it. It held its charge perfectly and never lost it's ability to crank the engine into life. The longest I ever left it was about 3 months & the most I ever did for a winter lay up was to disconnect both terminals.

 

[OldJock]

I'm curious how one can provide a "larger than normal current". On all the battery chargers I have, either the charging rate is set automatically by the "intelligent" charger, or is simply determined by the battery itself and the current capacity of the charger; as it charges the current is reduced.

When I said "normal" I was referring to what most people would have as a normal bike charger. As I understand it Bulk Charging is a constant current affair, which may or may not taper depending on your charger and the max rate is set by the charger not the battery. On the other hand if you use a charger which is too big for your battery you cook it you use one too small you won't charge it properly.

The Odyssey batteries require larger chargers for a given Ah rating than a liquid battery would, they use this current to start the battery charging from a deeply discharged state. A small current rated charger just won't do it

 

[OldJock]

Here is the Technical manual that tells you everything you should need to ever know

http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-TM-001_0411_000.pdf

John

 

[Drumnagorrach]

Thanks John
All I need to know, it seems that ,with the bike in the shed with the battery disconnected, it won't need charging. My experience this last few weeks seems to bear this out,the battery is holding a full charge.
Cheers
Lee

 

[Mi_ka]

Gell are generally described as "Deep Cycle" units and will recharge many times over from dead flat. Auto batteries will lose some of their efficiency if you let them go flat.

Just 1-2 notes:
Regardless of lead acid type, dead flat means not left for long in this state: The actual chemical charge layer is what protects the lead plates from the acid - when low charge remains, the less charge the more the acid can affect the plates corroding them and making stable crystalline material of them that reduces the capacity and cranking ability. I I think of it as "skin patches" reducing active plate surface. Lead batteries should be fully charged for long term storage exactly in order to have "thick" enough chemical load for the aforementioned protection, as I understand. In general they should not be left under 11.5 volts for long periods if voltage is used as a charge indicator of a healthy battery.

 

[OldJock]

Mika

I agree 100% leaving a lead acid battery discharged for a prolonged period will kill it, nothing surer.

As I understand it even flattening them completely under any circumstances is not good for them (let alone flattening and leaving). Deep cycle batteries handle this sort of treatment better, but its still not a good thing to do......................ask me how I know :roll:

Sometimes a flattened liquid type, which an Optimate pronounces DOA, can resuscitated by whacking a large current through it initially, then charging at a lower current.

Even if the battery is fully disconnected and left to stand its good practice to occasionally stick it onto a float charger just to top it up, it will lose charge over time albeit slowly, AGM less so than the liquid electrolyte type. I'd just stick it onto a float charger say every couple of months for 4 hours or so as a minimum.

Again just my experience and what has worked for me

John

 

[Mi_ka]

I too have had head scratching experiences with weird symptoms on gel batteries in electronics devices and liquid lead acid batteries on cars and bikes (I do not have enough experience on AGM batteries).

I have comen to this testing conclusion using a proper digital multimeter (I do not trust most charger gauges):
Charge it, then as voltage rises over time if at 14.5 volts at its terminals it draws more current (Amps) than 4-5% (liquid) or 3-4% (gel) of its rated capacity, then to recycling it goes... Better save time and mind tranquilness than investigate more with current pulses or other practical medications.
Example: A 9Ah liquid battery should draw less than 450mA at 14.5V to be considered OK - when new it usually hovers around 200mA (2.5%) as voltage rises more the 14.5V. You should then STOP charging or else you will be boiling the acid out of specs. For gel batteries you can expect 1-2% when new and happy.

I have found that how far off than this percentage the current is @14.5Vs is a simple health indicator. When pretty FUBAR but the f#$*ing b@st@rd wants to trick you it hovers around 800-900mA and more (10% of rated Ah), usually holds for a day or two then it just leaves you pushing the bike because of self discharge... Usually they self discharge because of particles of lead concentrating at the bottom causing gradual self short circuiting. Percentages between the 4-5% and 10% is an indicator of "grey zone - use at your risk" in my book.

Usual off the shelf chargers look only at voltage, not current. A FUBAR battery may go back to full charging voltage and the not-so-smart-charger reports "green" looking at voltage only but this is because of out of specs higher self resistance - that's why current at 14.5V is my indicator of choice.

 

[stromcat]

Will leaving the standard (AGM?) battery attached to an Optimate 3 charger for 3 months at a time do any harm? This is what I used to do with my old GS lead acid battery over the winter,and that was still going strong when I sold the bike after 7 years.

 

[OldJock]

What Mika said too

Leave a lead acid deep discharged for any length of time and it will no longer work for sure. Very important to keep any lead acid battery well charged if you want it to last. AGM can stand more abuse but these will also be toast if you leave them discharged long enough too..............ask me how I know

John

 

[kiwi dave]

I run several cheap chargers (NZ$29 from Jaycar here in New Zealand) connected to the mains via a timer switch, to provide power four times daily 15 minutes each time. No need to disconnect from the bike, and the battery chargers have their alligator clips replaced with a cigarette lighter plug for ease of connection.

I've left batteries for over eight months in this mode, with no perceivable ill effects. YMMV.

 

[Rafael]

The reason I got an Odyssey is that the manufacturer claimed it can sit on the shelf for 2 years with out loosing much charge. So far its true. I've had it for 3 years now, have never had to charge it for storage. Starts every time. I tested my PC925 after siting for 3 months by charging it with a 2 amp automatic charger and it went form red to green in less than an half hour. So it didn't need the charge. I love it; don't have to fuss with it. I've had 2 WestCo batteries crap out on me because of a little neglect, to f'ing sensitive. It was like having my pockets picked. Wish Odyssey made one to fit the Carc bikes!

Oh, and when my SP alternator rotor when out. I drove the bike to 40 miles a day for a month with an overnight charge, no problem.

 

[Mi_ka]

AGM can stand more abuse but these will also be toast if you leave them discharged long enough too..............ask me how I know

Have you by any chance taken current & voltage measurements on various health AGMs?
Or do my liquid/gel experience data apply to AGM also?

I tested my PC925 after siting for 3 months by charging it with a 2 amp automatic charger and it went form red to green in less than an half hour.

Let me kindly repeat that if the usual charger looks only at voltage, it may fail to properly notify the health of the battery - it may go "greeeeen" on a pretty FUBAR battery too.

 

[OldJock]

Hi Mika

I never went to the trouble of actually monitoring the voltage readings or doing any load tests. It is just observational when leaving the batteries out of the bike for a while then putting a charger onto them to top them up.

I noticed that liquid seemed to loose charge fastest followed by gel with AGM slowest over time. You can leave a stored AGM up to 6 months or longer without charging, but the terminal volts do drop over time. I just like to top them up occasionally. One time I left an AGM charged and disconnected for 3 years when I didn't know any better. I charged it and terminal volts came up to float value (around 13.8 as I recall). Put it into the bike and it did zip. I have also got anecdotal evidence from my local Duc dealer that often gel batteries will behave in exactly the same way. They hold charge but the second a load is applied they just collapse.

That's about all I got, I agree with all the comments you've made.

John