Oil passage sizes - variations

[rolf j]

Got two engine casings in the garage, my original V7-Sport from the early 70ies and one other roundfin that I believe is from a Convert, possibly early 80ies? I intend to build one 'main' engine and one for spare use.

I notice that the oil channels on the pressure side are similar on the two casings , just under 8mm, but the newer casing has got larger channels on the suction side, approx 10mm. Is this an original update or someones past modification? If original, is it a good idea to update on the old casing as well? ..seems logic to do so...

The oil pump that sat in the new casing must have been different as well, there is no hole for an axle going from the pump, contrary to the old casing. I see there are "special" pumps with "higher capacity" sold by Stein-Dinse, anyone having experience with those? The engines will be used for racing. :?:

 

[Chris R]

It is a good idea to increase the size of the oil passages on the suction side - you can't really go too large. Nice also to tap the sump and install allen socket screws so you can clean things out when you feel the need.

I don't know about Stein Dense's high capacity pump - Guzzi went to a larger pump sometime in the 80's (I think). Not a bad idea if the budget allows - it should reduce cavitation. I think the larger pump came about because of Dr. John's experience with his endurance racers. That being said the Guzzi bottom end is pretty durable through its entire development cycle.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Rolf. if you look at the V7 Sport case you'll see that the pick-up for the oil gets taken off the back wall of the timing chest. While the boss for the later 'Pick-up in sump' gallery is there you will, or should, find it un-drilled. Painfull experience has taught me that using an early gauze filter only engine for racing is a recipe for disaster. we twice blew up our engine due to oil starvation as the oil surged rearwards under hard acceleration exposing the pick up and running the mains. Since we swapped to a later 'Pick up in sump' and oil filter casting the engine has been impregnable.

The hole for the 'outrigger' shaft on the oil pump is an indicator of both a 'Filterless' case and the earlier, smaller, pump. If I were you I'd use the later case. While not strictly neccessary opeing up the induction side galleries does no harm. It in not neccessary to open up the delivery side galleries, once the oil is being pumped there is plenty of volume and pressure. It's the pick-up side that will cause problems as the only thing pushing the oil into the pump is crankcase pressure at slightly above atmospheric. Spin it over 9,000 for any length of time and the pump will cavitate and its 'Bye-Bye' big ends!!!!

If you want a later pump let me know. since I've stopped working on the older bikes I have a host of 2nd hand spares I'll probably never need. While the pump won't be new It will certainly be serviceable. I'll bung in one of my Tonti baffle plates too if its for racing.

Pete

 

[rolf j]

Rolf. if you look at the V7 Sport case you'll see that the pick-up for the oil gets taken off the back wall of the timing chest. While the boss for the later 'Pick-up in sump' gallery is there you will, or should, find it un-drilled.

Thanks for replies both of you!
Pete, that explains why there is a mysterious hole in the V7 casing and not the other, it puzzled me! You see the PO has rebuilt the V7-Sport to ordinary filter-sump so things looked pretty similar to the newer design in there. I still got the pump with the axle needing a hole in the casing, meaning this one is probably of the old low-capacity type? Will a replacement to the newer pump work even though the axle hole is there?

I'll definately use the newer casing for the "main" engine and see what I can make out of the old casing for a spare. This means I could do with 2 oil pumps, one to replace the small, old one and one to fit into the new casing. How's that Pete? E-mail me on roljo3<<funny letter a>>online.no

I have used your roper-baffle plate all the time in racing (948cc) and I have had a BONE DRY CATCH BOTTLE every race for three years even though I use the tiny original LM1 type separator and otherwise no bling system for the ventilation. The only modification I've done is to ram an enourmous screwdriver into the "valve" in the oil separator to put it out of commission and rather fit an ordinary ball valve from an LM3 at the bellhouse pipe.

My Guzzi racing mates cannot all say the same about their ventilation systems! and I put my hazzle-free operation all down to the baffle plate and a careful dosage of engine oil to suit the level of the plate. Great modification! Why don't every big twin owner throw one into their engine I wonder? I had to "steal" mine form the street bike so more plates are welcome!

 

[Penis Rotor]

V7 sport has,or should have, timing gears, oil pump with 'outrigger' spindle on back of drive gear and pick-up bolted to back wall of timing chest and a pipe that goes from the front boss on crankcase to rear boss that carries oil to the rear main bearing This has the oil pressure relief valve built into it.

850T case will be much the same apart from not having a hole for the 'outrigger' in the front wall of the timing chest.

Later, 'filter in sump' case will have three holes at the front of the case in a boss below the oil pump and no pipe as the oil galleries are incorporated in the sump along with the mounting hole for the oil pressure relief valve and the filter mount.

It is VITAL that the right parts are used in conjunction with the right cases and sumps. You can't use a later, higher capacity, pump with a crankcase designed for the 'Outrigger' pump. Nor can you use a later, filter type sump, with an earlier crankcase.

Just think about where the oil has to go and follow its route and it will all make sense.

pete

 

[rolf j]

My lube-setup was fully rebuilt to T3/LM standard by PO. No pipes going anywhere, but all excactly as the T3/LM. No pipes going from the pump, its oil channels go into the gallery at the front and into the new type filter sump, modern style. Rear main gets oil through the sump, modern style. All well so far, it is quite likely that the PO had the casing drilled to make galleries in order to fit the new sump (the casing has a genuine V7-Sport serial number).

BUT the ONLY important difference I find compared to new setup is that the oil pump has got the "outrigger" spindle sitting in the hole in the chest backwall, a hole the new casing does not have. Pete, when you say that I can't use a new pump in this casing, does that mean it is still possible if I can plug this hole in a decent way? ...seeing the galleries to transport the oil are all in place, modern style (thank you PO!).

Out of interest, the bike is actually a racing/track project built on the basis of a V7-Sport years and years ago by someone in Holland or Germany. I just continued along that same path instead of trying to get it back to original state. A very decent job was done on the engine, 88mm nicasil, well modified T3 heads made into midvalve, LM performance kit pistons (I have learnt on this forum), widened combust-chamber into an oval shape, probably in order to lower the comp, the ol'V7-Sport cam doing an ok job in there and the timing gears left in place. The only - and disasterous - problem is when a cam lifter split in half this year, or perhaps it had lived a split life in there for some time? One big "crunch" and the valve train on one side "exploded" and brought down piston and head. Time for the look-see and rebuild I should have done long ago!

 

[el jedi]

Aloha Guys,

el jedi here, it seems you guys have this one pretty well covered.

But I have been having a oil filter question bouncing around in the back of my head lately
after I saw an add and some general product write ups:

PC Racing Flo--- Reusable Stainlees Oil Filters: Prt # PCS4C & PCS4B; for Guzzi's V11's 1994-09 (1100cc)...
From what I've read out there in the Mags, and on the Web, is these spin-on filters allow a Higher Flow rate,
and a superiour filtreration (35 microns) and of course, you'd be saving tree's (sort of, & lol), plus they do look trick.

Granted so far I've only seen them advertised for newer Sq Fins, but ya never know.

Has any one tried one of these, or heard any Real World feedback in general and on Guzzi's?
I also believe Scott makes them aswell.

Lets me know, and much Mahalo.
el jedi