Oils and Thoughts

[bobbymoto71]

You.. guys.. are killin me :roll:

 

[bratman2]

I got a Staintune exhaust!!! Got to start somewhere,lol!

 

[Suncoast]

Hmmmmm sniff sniff I think I smell a TROLL!!

 

[bobbymoto71]

Hmmmmm sniff sniff I think I smell a TROLL!!

Troll?? What the hell is that suppose to mean?

 

[Suncoast]

Hmmmmm sniff sniff I think I smell a TROLL!!

Troll?? What the hell is that suppose to mean?

It means I think you are just trying to stir up controversy by sticking to your 50wt oil arguement, which totally flies in the face of all reasonable and accepted practices. You haven't brought any valid arguements to back up your views. You are just looking for a disagreements in this thread "trollish" behaviour. No offense but there have been engineers on this site that have stated why a good 10W60 oil is needed. I suggest you do a search of the past oil threads and then see if you still stick to your arguement. just sayin!!!

 

[GuzziMoto]

First question is whether the OP has an 8 valve or a 2 valve. It has been stated by some pretty knowledgeable folks that the 8 valve motor really needs a good quality oil of the right specs. Whether that means 10/60 or not...... I don't have an 8 valve so I can't say I care. But some of those same folks have also said that the older 2 valve motor is not that particular about the oil it uses. The two motors have vastly different designs and as such vastly different oil requirements.
So, until I hear which motor he is talking about I am going to reserve judgement.

 

[bobbymoto71]

Hmmmmm sniff sniff I think I smell a TROLL!!

I'm still on the fence on how to respond to your comment. But until then, please go back to my original post and read the last two sentences. Take a minute and think about my intent before you start throwing out slanderous remarks.

 

[bobbymoto71]

First question is whether the OP has an 8 valve or a 2 valve. It has been stated by some pretty knowledgeable folks that the 8 valve motor really needs a good quality oil of the right specs. Whether that means 10/60 or not...... I don't have an 8 valve so I can't say I care. But some of those same folks have also said that the older 2 valve motor is not that particular about the oil it uses. The two motors have vastly different designs and as such vastly different oil requirements.
So, until I hear which motor he is talking about I am going to reserve judgement.

It's a 2 valve motor 2007 norge. Where I live doesn't get below 30F and gets into high 90F and low100F in the months to come

 

[john zibell]

It's a 2 valve motor 2007 norge. Where I live doesn't get below 30F and gets into high 90F and low100F in the months to come

You do need the multi viscosity. It isn't a 1962 Harley. Maybe not 10-60, but at least a 10 or 15W50. Single grade oils just won't cut it in a modern engine. I even run multi viscosity (10W40) in a 1926 Model T Ford!! Even these old engines perform better with multi viscosity oils. So if this sort of discussion continues much longer, this thread will be locked.

 

[GuzziMoto]

It's a 2 valve motor 2007 norge. Where I live doesn't get below 30F and gets into high 90F and low100F in the months to come

For a 2 valve motor I personally don't use 10/60. I would not use a straight weight oil, at start up it tends not to flow well. And as they say, most of your engine wear happens at start up. I did play with straight weight oils in a Harley motor, but in the end I went back to multi-weight oil.
Funny thing about multi-weight oil, the first number is not just the viscosity at 100 degrees F (at least as I recall that is the temp they typically rate it at) but it is also the viscosity of the base oil. A 10/60 is 10 weight oil with viscosity modifiers added to increase its viscosity at 210 degrees F. A 20/50 is a 20 weight oil with less viscosity modifiers (then the 10/60). The other thing of note, at least to me, is that these numbers are all pretty much self graded. There is a lot of wiggle room in them, a lot like tire sizes. One companies 160/60 can be wider then another companies 170/60. I prefer companies that make the actual data about their oil and what its properties are then ones that do not. Based on the actual data at least one companies 20/50 is preferable then some other companies 10/60, at least in my opinion.
In the end, while its fine to discuss preferences about different oils there is little reason to use a straight weight oil in a modern engine. The cold rating is not just cold as in below freezing, it is typically a rating of flow at 100 degrees F. I like the better base stock idea but the flow on start up is too much to give up for me. I can be a luddite at times but not when it comes to modern oil.
I have nothing against Lucas, although they are not very good about making the properties of their oils available, but straight weight oils are inferior to multi-weight oils in most cases.

 

[bobbymoto71]

Good call coach! This thread should have been locked a long time ago, and thank you for your input that was straight tech related. I did finally speak with the guy from Lucas. Apparently he oversees the motorcycle oil division. I don't know what his exact title was, but he was the "dude". He had some interesting things to say, and the some other things that were maybe more on the "sale" side of things. It was how they went about engineering an oil they seemed fit to be used in the discussed application. But I will just save what we talked about to myself. It was interesting though.

 

[bobbymoto71]

Thank you guzzimoto for taking the time to chime in. It was very informative and appreciated.

 

[Luma46]

Instead of bickering about 10W60, 20W50 and other oils in rather general terms, why not going to manufacturer’s sites and checking their oils actual specs. To me the most important is viscosity at 100C and 40C which is stated by every serious oil manufacturer for their respective oils. Here are some examples of oils that I have considered and have an access to here in Canada The viscosities are stated in cSt (centiSkokes), higher number higher viscosity, all oils below are synthetics:

Valvoline 20W50 motorcycle oil 20.5/162
Mobil 1 15W50 automotive 18.0/125
Mobil 1 20W50 motorcycle oil 20.8/172
Redline 10W60 automotive 25.5/182
Redline 5W50 automotive 20.5/128
Amsoil SAE60 motorcycle oil 23.4/190

So what these numbers tell me. Two different manufacturer oils with the same xxWyy grade can have quite different viscosities. The low xxW number doesn’t necessarily mean it has a low viscosity. At 100C where the 8V Guzzi mills probably run, there is not that dramatic difference in viscosities between all above oils.
All these are heavy grade oils, and just for comparison, some of the mid grade oils like 10W40 have 100C viscosity as low as 10 and yet, they are recommended for air cooled engines.

So what do I choose. I want an oil that has high viscosity when hot and low viscosity when cold. I would probably think twice about the Mobil 1 15W50 for its low viscosity at 100C and Amsoil SAE60 for its high viscosity at 40C. Everyone will probably pick the Redline 10W60, but I would give a serious consideration to Redline 5W50. Just remember, with temperature going down, the viscosity goes exponentially up and I even do not want to know what it is at 0C.

 

[john zibell]

Not only is oil to keep metal surfaces separated, it also functions to cool the plain bearings. A thinner oil will flow faster resulting in improved cooling of the bearing. So long the viscosity is thick enough to keep the metal apart, and thin enough for a good flow rate for cooling is the viscosity you are looking for. As far as what that viscosity is for the different Guzzi engines, I wish I had more information.

 

[Luma46]

Not only is oil to keep metal surfaces separated, it also functions to cool the plain bearings. A thinner oil will flow faster resulting in improved cooling of the bearing. So long the viscosity is thick enough to keep the metal apart, and thin enough for a good flow rate for cooling is the viscosity you are looking for. As far as what that viscosity is for the different Guzzi engines, I wish I had more information.

The cooling function of the oil is actually very good point that John has raised. And for that reason and for high viscosity at cold temperatures (and yes Canada IS rather cold) I am very cautious selecting the heaviest grade oils like the 10W60 no matter what the "hot bloodied and hot weathered" Guzzi manual says.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

...I am very cautious selecting the heaviest grade oils like the 10W60 no matter what the "hot bloodied and hot weathered" Guzzi manual says.

Um, ever been to Mandello del Lario in the winter months? i.e. Dec, Jan, Feb. It's below freezing on average and it does snow there occasionally! It's in the Northern most part of Italy, (think, "Alps"). FWIW. :lol:

 

[rbm]

The cooling function of the oil is actually very good point that John has raised. And for that reason and for high viscosity at cold temperatures (and yes Canada IS rather cold) I am very cautious selecting the heaviest grade oils like the 10W60 no matter what the "hot bloodied and hot weathered" Guzzi manual says.

So, can I ask a possibly related question about cooling? I've read somewhere (possibly here on GT) that fuel also acts a a cooling medium. Engines which run lean tend to run hotter. Enrichening the fueling mixture (say on a FI bike because I don't know about carburated engines much) will lower the engine temperature. Will this action also put less stress on the oil and therefore one can have a greater range of oil viscosities, and therefore brands, from which to choose? Just asking.

 

[john zibell]

Robert,

Hard to answer your question. To a point, the combustion temp will be reduced. That will probably have little impact on the heat at the plain bearings (at the crank, con rods, and the cam in the 2 valve engine), but would keep pistons, heads, in head cams, and cylinders cooler. If rich enough, the extra fuel could even contribute to oil contamination.

 

[Luma46]

So, can I ask a possibly related question about cooling? I've read somewhere (possibly here on GT) that fuel also acts a a cooling medium. Engines which run lean tend to run hotter. Enrichening the fueling mixture (say on a FI bike because I don't know about carburated engines much) will lower the engine temperature. Will this action also put less stress on the oil and therefore one can have a greater range of oil viscosities, and therefore brands, from which to choose? Just asking.

Well, I tell you one “secret”. On pretty much all of my past fuel injected bikes, and there were four of them if I count right, I did this little trick that is supported by some and dismissed by others. I put a resistor anywhere from 500 to 1k ohm in series with the intake air temperature sensor. It fools the CPU into thinking that that the intake air is a bit cooler and denser than it actually is and adds a bit more fuel. I am not sure if it actually works on bikes that have O2 sensors, which are supposed to regulate fuel/air mixture, but it positively worked on my 2002 VStrom 1000 and Kawasaki Nomad. I think that manufacturers purposely lean the mixture to meet the emission standards, which is good for environment but not so good for bike. Apart from cooling better the bike, the slightly richer mixture eliminates pinging and you can safely use lower grade 87 fuel. From my experience it doesn’t affect fuel consumption, sometimes it improves it. I did put 1k resistor on my 2012 Stelvio.

 

[rbm]

I noticed the "lean from the factory" fueling on my V7 and installed a PC-V / O2 Optimizer combination. The net effect is the same as you describe, Luma46 -- reduction in decel popping, lower operating temperatures, better cold starting, no surging on constant throttle and the bike feels "happier" overall. I saw a very slight increase in fuel consumption, about 2%. I continue to use Shell Vpower (PON 91) fuel because it is ethanol-free and probably won't switch to 87.

My question was purely academic as I will continue to follow manufacturer's specification for oil viscosity and type for my bike. There is so little oil in the sump on a V7 that the characteristics are paramount for engine longevity.

Cheers,