RE: Seen it all now

[seb]

Today I discovered the reason for a problem that has been plaguing my '07 Norge for quite some time. Now that I know what the cause is and what the solution might be, I can rest easy because now I have seen it all.

For years I have suspected that the engineers at Moto Guzzi were one step behind the rest of the technical world. It was however only a suspicion. Now there is proof.

Some time back my Norge developed a tiny leak somewhere in the CARC. Every now and then I found a drop or three of gear oil on the garage floor. On the brake line running under the CARC together with the speed sensor wire was a small amount of gear oil. I could not locate the source of the leak. I just returned from a 1500 mile ride yesterday and my back wheel was covered with gear oil. This was in addition to the small puddle on the garage floor that the bike so graciously deposited last night. Very close inspection indicated that the oil was emanating from the little plastic connector that the brake line snaps into and the speed sensor wire is ty-wrapped to. This would indicate that the little plastic thing is mounted in a hole that penetrates the CARC housing.

The engineers at Moto Guzzi wouldn't do that, would they? Drill a hole clean through the CARC on the bottom that would allow oil to escape if it ever got loose or even came out? Seriously now, nobody would do that, would they?

Sure they would and that's what they did. I pried the little plastic thing out and watched in disbelief as gear oil poured out of the CARC. In fact there are three or four of these cheap little plastic bastards. Apparently, you hammer them in. I am not kidding. I am looking the part numbers up right now so I can get them on order.

BTW: Time is of the essence here to get this thing fixed. My new BMW arrives in July and I got to move something red out of the garage (and my life).

 

[Penis Rotor]

Um. No. Sorry. If there is a lot of oil coming out of the clip holes it is because either the front seal of the CARC/Bevelbox has blown, the boot at the front is leaking because the rather inadequate clamp isn't clamping or the gearbox output shaft has shat he bed.

Check the oil level in the bevelbox. Did you do a lot of riding in the rain? If so is the oil cloudy?

The area that the clips go in to is on the swingarm principally, (The ones on the CARC/Bevelbox are in blind holes, I think there is only one.) and this is a dry area. Pull the box off the swingarm after checking the oil level and see if there is a lot of oil in the swingarm. If there is? Work out whether its coming from the gearbox or bevelbox and fix accordingly.

Pete

 

[GuzziMoto]

I think the OP is under the mistaken impression that the entire swing arm is filled with oil.
Best of luck with the BMW. I hear they have no serious issues.......

 

[M0T0Geezer]

I think the OP is under the mistaken impression that the entire swing arm is filled with oil.
Best of luck with the BMW. I hear they have no serious issues.......

Two years ago a friend of mine got a whole new BMW K1200GT free under warranty because of three rear drive failures. Guess BMW got tired of trying fix it.

BMWs do have serious issues but at least they seem to have a good warranty

Geezer

 

[Pascal]

I think the OP is under the mistaken impression that the entire swing arm is filled with oil.
Best of luck with the BMW. I hear they have no serious issues.......

That's it! I'm selling my bike!!

 

[seb]

Re: Update to 'Seen it all now'

Many thanks to Pete Roper for correcting my dithyramb. Having now had enough time to get the Norge in for some maintenance and a closer look at the CARC, I am appalled at what I found. Using the excellent Roper instructions for dis-assembling the CARC and having duly performed said chore, it would appear that I have a buggered internal drive unit. Peering down into the front ring nut, I can observe that the special slotted nut and keeper holding the splined pinion gear has worked itself loose and is just rattling around inside the ring nut assembly. Evidenced by bits of metal retrieved from inside the casing, I now know what that slight hesitation and pop was that I heard while leaving Astoria, OR three weeks ago. There doesn't appear to be any damage other than the nut is totally backed off. I have no clue what it is holding together or why it has not exploded (imploded?). The service manual doesn't go into details and I am assuming that it is a non-serviceable part. I am thinking that if I get my local Guzzi dealer to remove the ring nut, he could possibly just put a new keeper in and lock the nut down and replace the ring nut and seal. Otherwise, I suspect I am in for a rather expensive bunch of parts. I simply cannot sell this bike unless this is correctly fixed.

Any comments on this?

The other amazing thing about this loose nut: I put on over 1200 miles after the damage occurred and the machine ran exceptionally well even at high speed. Other than the slight oil leaking out of the front ring nut seal and through the casing, I would have never known there was any thing wrong.

After 50K+ miles, I am soon to say goodbye to the Norge. I have enjoyed this machine tremendously while it was running. However, after 5 years and a debilitating breakdown every single year in the most god-forsaken places, I have decided to go back to BMW and I have purchased a new R1200RT. It doesn't have the appeal of the Norge but at least I can get it serviced. As well, my new local BMW dealer also sells Moto Guzzi. I thoroughly inspected and rode the new Norge and have decided that it still has many of the same old problems that the '07 does. Not what I have come to expect from a Guzzi.

S....

BTW: Went for test ride on the new Guzzi 1400. Mind-boggling!

 

[lomax]

Yea, no kidding. Get rid of that thing. I think I may do the same. My 1972 Eldorado has developed a slight leak in the final drive so they must not be reliable. Just kidding of course :mrgreen:

But all seriousness aside, I will have to say that my new Stelvio left me stranded once. That has not happened for over 50 years and the last time was on my 1942 Harley. But hey, shit happens.

Back to work now. :angry:

Marc

 

[Pascal]

Re: Update to 'Seen it all now'

...... my new local BMW dealer also sells Moto Guzzi. I thoroughly inspected and rode the new Norge and have decided that it still has many of the same old problems that the '07 does. Not what I have come to expect from a Guzzi.

S....

BTW: Went for test ride on the new Guzzi 1400. Mind-boggling!

1. BMW dealers have nothing in stock and when they order what you need, it doesn't come the next day that's for sure. :whistle:
2. So you test rode the new Norge with the 8V and all and despite all that, you've decided that it still has the same old problems??? :whistle:
So what? Did the CARC gave up the ghost or you broke down somewhere?
Must be smoking some good grass... lol.
3. I test rode the new Cali 1400 as well and I agree with you... Mind-boggling (in a positive way).

 

[moto]

A question for the group...

This thread prompted me to look closely at a leak I've been having, which I now conclude is the same as seb's, the original poster: oil leaking from the swingarm casing (2007 Griso 1100). I've got a 2000 mile trip scheduled to start Sunday, of course.

I'll take off the CARC tomorrow and have a look, but I have a general question about what I'm likely to be looking at: Is the leakage 1) a problem of leaking per se, that I can counteract by keeping the oil topped up; or 2) a symptom of a more serious problem which is already ongoing and which will possibly destroy my CARC whether or not I keep the oil topped up?

Obviously if the answer is likely to be (2) rather than (1), I'll be staying put. I recognize that more information about what I see would be helpful. I'll post that tomorrow.

Thanks, as always,

Moto

 

[john zibell]

A question for the group...

This thread prompted me to look closely at a leak I've been having, which I now conclude is the same as seb's, the original poster: oil leaking from the swingarm casing (2007 Griso 1100). I've got a 2000 mile trip scheduled to start Sunday, of course.

I'll take off the CARC tomorrow and have a look, but I have a general question about what I'm likely to be looking at: Is the leakage 1) a problem of leaking per se, that I can counteract by keeping the oil topped up; or 2) a symptom of a more serious problem which is already ongoing and which will possibly destroy my CARC whether or not I keep the oil topped up?

Obviously if the answer is likely to be (2) rather than (1), I'll be staying put. I recognize that more information about what I see would be helpful. I'll post that tomorrow.

Thanks, as always,

Moto

A leak there is usually the rubber boot not properly sealed to the CARC around the outer perimeter. This can be easily resealed. No need to be expecting the worst.

 

[moto]

A leak there is usually the rubber boot not properly sealed to the CARC around the outer perimeter. This can be easily resealed. No need to be expecting the worst.

Bingo!

I found three of the four bolts holding the CARC to the swing arm were loose (about loose enough to remove with my fingers) when I took it off. No doubt that was the problem. The rubber boot appears undamaged, the pinion splines look perfect, and I can't detect any play in the pinion shaft by hand. There is no leakage around the main seal where the wheel mounts. The front interior of the swing arm is completely oil free, so the transmission seal is fine.

My plan is to clean things up and torque the bolts holding the CARC to 50Nm, per the manual. Should I lube the rubber boot on installation with oil or grease, or install it dry? Use sealant?

Many thanks, John. I owe you a delicious beverage.

Moto

P.S. The CARC had never been off before, and the bike had been gone over for bolt torques, etc., by one of the superstar Guzzi dealers at the first service. I'm surprised the CARC bolts were loose, but I guess I shouldn't be. I'll have to be more diligent about checking every bolt I can see.

 

[Pascal]

LOL, you got me worry guys and I went to check those bolts on both my Grisos...
Everything is tight.

My 07 has been super reliable so far, not a glitch, nada at 14K miles.
The 09 has been the same at 33K miles if you don't count the oil leak from the main seal when it was almost new, lol.
Thanks for the warranty on that one...

 

[john zibell]

A leak there is usually the rubber boot not properly sealed to the CARC around the outer perimeter. This can be easily resealed. No need to be expecting the worst.

Bingo!

I found three of the four bolts holding the CARC to the swing arm were loose (about loose enough to remove with my fingers) when I took it off. No doubt that was the problem. The rubber boot appears undamaged, the pinion splines look perfect, and I can't detect any play in the pinion shaft by hand. There is no leakage around the main seal where the wheel mounts. The front interior of the swing arm is completely oil free, so the transmission seal is fine.

My plan is to clean things up and torque the bolts holding the CARC to 50Nm, per the manual. Should I lube the rubber boot on installation with oil or grease, or install it dry? Use sealant?

Many thanks, John. I owe you a delicious beverage.

Moto

P.S. The CARC had never been off before, and the bike had been gone over for bolt torques, etc., by one of the superstar Guzzi dealers at the first service. I'm surprised the CARC bolts were loose, but I guess I shouldn't be. I'll have to be more diligent about checking every bolt I can see.

Not so fast. The CARC bolts don't hold that rubber dam. There is a metal bracket and two screws that secure the dam to the housing. That is where you need to pay attention. When I discovered mine weeping, I sealed the boot to the housing with RTV. However, it is a good thing you found the loose CARC bolts.

 

[moto]

Not so fast. The CARC bolts don't hold that rubber dam. There is a metal bracket and two screws that secure the dam to the housing. That is where you need to pay attention. When I discovered mine weeping, I sealed the boot to the housing with RTV. However, it is a good thing you found the loose CARC bolts.

Thanks for this recommendation, but I'm going to disagree about what holds the dam. The metal bracket you mention holds the dam in place during installation, but once the CARC is mounted the bracket and the dam are being compressed from behind by the casting of the swing arm. You can clearly see the marks of the bracket on that casting. The bracket stands about 1mm proud of the CARC mounting surface before mating with the swingarm, ready to compress the dam by that amount once the CARC bolts are tightened. The metal bracket is a relatively puny thing not capable of getting good compression all around its periphery just by virtue of its two little locating screws, so it is compressed from behind as described.

I have the advantage of having the CARC still off the swingarm, making it convenient to recheck the clamping arrangement.

That's not to say that a little RTV would be a bad thing to use.

 

[Penis Rotor]

He's right John. The bracket simply holds the boot in place. Its the compression by the four bolts that hold the bevelbox unit on that is *Supposed* to seal it but often didn't.

To solve that the factory now gloops the whole lot in about a litre of silastic. Sure it stops the weeps but it makes getting the bevelbox off a right bastard of a job!

Pete.

 

[moto]

Pete, thanks for chiming in. So Silastic is RTV (room temperature vulcanizing) silicone? I'll do that.

Moto

 

[Penis Rotor]

AKA gorilla snot.

Pete

 

[john zibell]

He's right John. The bracket simply holds the boot in place. Its the compression by the four bolts that hold the bevelbox unit on that is *Supposed* to seal it but often didn't.

To solve that the factory now gloops the whole lot in about a litre of silastic. Sure it stops the weeps but it makes getting the bevelbox off a right bastard of a job!

Pete.

Pete,

Point taken. But it the dam isn't position correctly and clamped with the bracket in a good fashion, no amount of force from the CARC bolts will make it seal.