Relay question

[Eliminator]

In front of me I have a relay from my California 3 with Digiplex. Looks to be original Italian.

Rev counter bounces around, bike not running right. Engine cut out, wouldn't start. Pushed the relay down, runs again, but rev counter still bouncing.

See if I can clean the contacts, as I can see some electrical burn marks on them. Although the fact that pushing down on the relay may mean there is a problem with the female connector.

It is a 5 pin. Description on the top is type 23 b047 12 volt 40 amp.

I have the cover off, contacts are open.

Is it just a "simple" matter of finding as a replacement one that matches the above criteria? Also want a recognised brand of relay.

Reading up on it, seems that it should be SPST as opposed to SPDT.

I posted in this section and not the Tonti frame section, as the relay question is rather generic.

As soon as the word Guzzi is used, the price goes up.

Hopefully, I've worded this correctly!

 

[john zibell]

Here are the equivalent relays.

Bitron B047E 46520411-232006 & 232008
Borg-Warner (BWD) R3223
BMW 61 36 1 393 412 & 61 36 1 393 415
Bosch 0-332-207-307
Ducati 541.4.003.1A & 541.4.010.1A
Ford F57B-14B192-AA
Hella 4RD 931 524-02
Hongfa HFV6 012ZS-TR & 012HS-TR
NAIS ACM13221 & ACM33221
NHG NVFMCZ20 & NVFMCZ25
Omron G8HN-1A2T & G8HN-1C2T
Siemens V23073 & V23074
Song Chuan 871-1C-S-R1-12VDC
Tyco A1001-A402 & A1001-A403
Zettler AZ988-1CT-12DC1R(201)

I'd go for the Siemens or Bosch.

 

[Eliminator]

Wow, that was a rapid reply. Thank you.

The Bosch one is only rated at 30 Amps, bit wary about getting it wrong.

 

[john zibell]

Wow, that was a rapid reply. Thank you.

The Bosch one is only rated at 30 Amps, bit wary about getting it wrong.

30 amps is more than enough. The highest fuse rating in the bike is 15 amps.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Not sure what relay you are messing with and why you think you have a relay issue?

Relays do 1 thing. They use small amounts of electricity (current) to control large amounts of electricity (current). That’s all.

In a classic Moto Guzzi example, a horn button switch.

All of the current for the horn, passes through the switch every time it is used, putting a decent draw through the switch itself.

Now, you decide to upgrade to a dual Fiamm horn setup or a Nautilus Sound Bomb Blaster, or an Air horn. All of these horns draw more current (Amps) than the switch was designed to carry, so you have to install a relay which will use the existing circuit that went to the little beep beep wimpy horn, to drive the relays internal switch which will carry the high current load to the horn(s).

You run new appropriate wiring from your new horns, ground on one side, and the closed contact positive side direct from the battery to the relay throw arm, to make the new circuit which will provide the large current to the horn.


So above, 86 is powered by the switch. When pressed, it energizes the switch arm to be moved from 87a to the 87 pole. This completes the circuit which allows the large current from the battery, to be allowed through the circuit at 30 to 87.

The horn switch no longer carries this large current through it. The large current goes from the battery - 30 - 87 - to horn(s).

Little current controls delivery of large current. This is what relays do.

Apologies if you already know all of this but I’m trying to understand why you feel you have a relay issue.

What are you trying to do and what is happening that gives you pause?

 

[Eliminator]

First thing that happened was that the rev counter needle started to become erratic, swinging around. Then the bike cut out. Wouldn't start for several attempts. Then started, but still with the erratic rev counter.
I removed both side panels, removed the relays on the left side of the bike. Looked at all of their pins. Sprayed WD40 into the relay holders. Separated any electrical connector on that side of the bike, looking for evidence of bad connections, I.e. Verdigris. None was found.
Moved over to the other side of the bike, removed the fuses to see if anything untoward was happening. One of the fuses showed signs of overheating. I turned the ignition on, with this fuse removed. The oil pressure, charging light, and I think, the neutral lights did not come on. Replaced with a new fuse. Removed the only relay on that side of the bike, next to the fuses. WD40 again.
Started the bike, went for a ride, rev counter working perfectly, engine did not cut out.
Rode 25 miles to work, all was well. But, when I left to go home, the rev counter became erratic, bike stuttered and engine cut out. Wouldn't start, I removed the seat, pressed down and wiggled the relay on R/H side, bike started, but rev counter erratic. Few hundred yards later, same thing. Then I managed to ride home, but with revcounter bouncing, also showing higher revs that what is should be.
Removed relay last night, it was now 23:00. Took cover off relay. The points have evidence of arcing ( this is on the small contacts, that pulls the normally open relay to closed. That is as far as I got.
My "assumption" as pressing this relay and wiggling it, and the bike starting is that is the cause of the problem. Could perhaps be the female holder of the relay?

 

[Kevin.NZ]

You say one of the fuses showed signs of overheating and you replaced it, well it could very well be the holder itself. When they get hot they lose their spring tension. You may have to replace the fuse holder. Loose connections will cause overheating

 

[Eliminator]

This morning, I cleaned the arcing from the contacts, cleaned up the male connectors on the Digiplex relay.

Put back on the bike, started the engine, no erratic bouncing rev counter.

I also switched the ignition on, engine not running, I can see the relay working correctly ( obviously as it has just ran!)

Put the side stand down, Digiplex relay deenergised, as did, what I assume to be the side stand relay.
Side stand up and down several times, both relays working. The Kill switch is working as well, takes power off the relays. Flicked it on and off several times to check its function.

Take it out later.... locally

I appreciate your help guys, thank you.

 

[Eliminator]

John, those relays have the wrong pin layout compared to mine.

This is what I have. Normally open. Go on various websites, rare for them to describe as n/o or n/c. some ask what car they are for.

 

[john zibell]

John, those relays have the wrong pin layout compared to mine.

This is what I have. Normally open. Go on various websites, rare for them to describe as n/o or n/c. some ask what car they are for.

That looks very similar to a standard 30 amp automotive relay. I have no idea why the stock one is rated for 40 amps. If the size is different you may just have to bite the bullet and get one from Guzzi if you really need one.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

You are both swirling the same basic SPDT configuration.

“no” (normally open) and “nc” (normally closed) are not rare designations. They are standard designations, just like. “Make and break”.

The very best treatise on relays on the internet in my opinion and the one that will give you complete understanding is here:

Copy and paste this into a new browser window.

12voltplanet.co.uk/relay-guide.html

 

[Eliminator]

Thanks again.

I love it that photos can be added simply, most bike forums require an external app. to download from.

I'll see what relays are in my car.

 

[Eliminator]

I've had the GS since 2004, bought it with 996 miles, racked up a few since. Guzzi since 2012, only about 10,000 miles, it hibernates in winter.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

You have great taste!

I've owned and ridden more BMW GS's than I can remember.

The only one I wish I had never sold was my absolutely immaculate R100GS Bumble Bee. She was no garage queen! I rode the snot out of her everywhere in Baja California but I took impeccable care of her. Everybody could not believe the condition she was in all the time. That bike "Buzz" was LOVED and is WORSHIPED by her current owner. I sold her for a fortune about 10+ years ago in an insane auction bidding war. I still get yearly updates from her owner.

My favorite GS was my silver 2001 R1150GS. Put 100k+ on her.

In the last photo, look to the left, and you see a glimpse of my California EV in red and cream.

 

[Eliminator]

Oooh, the 100GS is lovely. I think the airhead BMW's was one of the best looking engines ever.

 

[Eliminator]

Reading up more about relays, it seems that mine is quite generic.

If I get a 5 pin, normally open relay, with suitable amp rating. I should be OK?

Is there anything wrong with my rambling thoughts?

I see that some relays have a diode to stop voltage spikes, can't see one in mine, as the bike is 1994 and the lack of a diode hasn't damaged anything..... Should I get the diode type,( as an upgrade) maybe they weren't available back then?

My relay is dated 1992.

Rode the bike yesterday, all was well. But, it was good for 25 miles the other day. So, I may not even need a new relay. . Take a while before I get my confidence back in the bike.

 

[Vagrant]

I always replace all of mine with 5 pin so they can be rotated up one for future checking purposes. Pulling battery terminals and engine ground. Clean and lube them and relay holders along with fuses. Do it every two years.

 

[Eliminator]

Played up again today

But, there is an identical relay on the other side of the bike, it's the starter relay. Swapped them over, rode the same route as earlier in the day, no problems encountered. May be my imagination, but, bike seemed to be more responsive. "May"

The starter relay is only used momentarily, the Digiplex relay is in use, all the time the engine is running.

Watch this space for the next episode.

 

[Moto-Uno]

Just caught up on this posting , I damn near wet myself after noticing that "Scott's" post,
an explanation of relays was from the UK . Home of the Prince Of Darkness , Mr. Lucas !
I'll read it later for sure , just growing up in the 60's with BSA's , kinda put the fear of British
electrics into me !
Great to hear that you appear to have cured the problem , and in that great Guzzi way , it
was a cheap fix . Peter

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Thanks Peter but from the continuing posts, I’m thinking that nobody actually went and read anything because they are attributing characteristics to a relay, that do not exist.