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Sudden and severe pinging between 4-5000 RPM

vivo said:
Hey there Andrew...

Excuse if I missed something....

Much of what you've done has been based on assumption. The oldest posts if I remember were less conclusive as to pinging... I may be wrong

If it were me I would try to eliminate the noise, which is pinging as you have said. If higher octane is a fix why haven't you started there? If a higer octane can reduce or eliminate detonation then it stands to reason you need to prove you can stop the ping. This is where I would have started. I would want to know if it is pinging and I would want to know what fuel quality means to the situation...

Have you considered a homemade cool can. Will it cool the fuel enough to help? Is it possible to cool the fuel thus reduce engine heat if only as a trial?

I have to wonder why some bikes might ping but others do not? I can understand the climate the bike runs in has an effect, elevation, fuel quality, rider input, and set up. I have a harder time understanding why combustion chamber design even accounting for variation in bikes allows some bikes to detonate but others to run without problem and given this isn't really a small issue I wonder why a manufacturer would allow engines to reach production that have the ability to self destruct? That doesn't make much sense it me so if I am assuming it is not related to combustion chamber design then it must be something else? Timing is more reasonable an assumption but it might be anything? So I am wondering why you don't remove the easy stuff first before re invention of the chamber design?

Just trying to look at this with new eyes... duhhh

vivo
Click to expand...

It's all good discussion. I have tried what I see as obvious. Fuels, plugs, TPS, tappets, wires, coils, and a few other things that I probably can't remember. Our high test fuels are 93 octane around here. The engine has never used anything less. The elevation here is 400 feet. This has been happening for so long, that I can't remember if on longer rides to higher elevations there was a difference. I may start gathering data for each time the sudden and severe pinging rears its ugly head. I stated in the initial post what were the known conditions during each pinging event. But, if the temp sensor I just ordered doesn't rectify the problem, I will start logging as much data as I can to help narrow it down.

One thing I want to emphasize is how much improvement the PC5, ECU flash, and AT have done to improve the engine performance. It truly transformed what I would describe as a lazy engine. The engine is explosive with throttle input. The power curve much more linear. I love it and can't imagine the bike without it.
 
Brian UK said:
Anyone ever actually checked the ignition timing on a bike which pings? I don't mean the figure displayed by VDSTS or Axone, I mean with an independent method like an old fashioned timing disc?
Click to expand...

I have not. Can you give me a lesson on this?
-I would love to know how to measure timing on this bike.
-Is the timing on our Guzzis fixed regardless of conditions? If so, and Todd was willing, I would like to experiment with timing adjustments on the ECU. Arci has suggested this above. Maybe at an elevation of 400 feet, and ethanol fuels, a timing adjustment is necessary.
 
Vivo,
my earlier posts were less conclusive, because over time i have eliminated variables.

Adding high octane fuel cures the problem, but octane booster does not.

Cool ambient temps significantly reduce the problem

Reducing timing solves the problem, but at an inexcusable expense in power.

vastly improving squish does NOT solve the problem

Adding tappet clearances (loosening from US spec to World spec) does NOT affect the problem

While things like combustion chamber design are not likely to be the DETERMINING factor in whether one bike pings and others dont, the fact of the matter is, the basic design of this engine is HIGHLY susceptible to this problem, and a stackup of other factors can push it over the edge, one way or another.

It could be something as obscure as casting flash in the ports or injector timing, or as simple as a poor valve seat. It could even be on the piston side of things (poor oil flow through oil jets below the piston)

But it stands to reason, that if the only variable that changes is the ambient temperature, and the condition improves, then perhaps the causes of pinging can be supressed by cooling things down, and reducing the temp of the intake charge.

*air cooled heads often run hotter than their water-cooled counterparts
*The cylinders are powdercoated, which is a terriffic insulator
*The intake manifold gets EXTREMELY hot, as it has a bare metal contact with the head itself. (using a fiber gasket could reduce it's temp) and air flow through this hot passage way could very well be pre-heated
*The sides of the cylinders that lie inward see relatively little cooling air
 
There was a short discussion about Brisk plugs, a while back (OP by me). These supposedly give a larger or more even flame front, which *could* reduce pinging. Have you tried them, or other alternative plugs?
 
point on ignition timing is because the cam phase sensor is the gubbins which sets the initial ignition timing. Now this is shimmed to give a specific gap between the sensor and ring. Now if this gap is too much/too little (I can't remember which way) it will advance the spark by some amount. This will not be reported by VDSTS or Axone.
This may be clutching at straws, I don't know, but worth a thought?
The actual advance will be fixed by the ECU, varied according to the data it collects from the sensors, but always with reference to the phase pickup.
 
I'm not mechanically minded. Reading through this thread, this may be a dumb question, but if heat is the one consistent factor, has any one tried thermo fans, like the ones cars have? While there is no radiator to cool, maybe pushing air through faster could help lower temps just a little?

Robert
 
RJVB said:
There was a short discussion about Brisk plugs, a while back (OP by me). These supposedly give a larger or more even flame front, which *could* reduce pinging. Have you tried them, or other alternative plugs?
Click to expand...

I have not tried an alternative plug. But, it's worth a try. It will be one more item to check off.
 
Brian UK said:
point on ignition timing is because the cam phase sensor is the gubbins which sets the initial ignition timing. Now this is shimmed to give a specific gap between the sensor and ring. Now if this gap is too much/too little (I can't remember which way) it will advance the spark by some amount. This will not be reported by VDSTS or Axone.
This may be clutching at straws, I don't know, but worth a thought?
The actual advance will be fixed by the ECU, varied according to the data it collects from the sensors, but always with reference to the phase pickup.
Click to expand...

Interesting. This should be a relatively easy check. I will give it a shot. To confirm, the workshop manual refers to it as an Engine Speed Sensor. Cut out from pg. 117, section 6-7 below? Is that correct?
 

Attachments

  • engine_speed_sensor.tiff
    81.5 KB · Views: 445
:!: I tried the alternative external plugs "NGK Iridium - BPR6EIX-11", do not resolve the problem with "pingging"

:?:
Does anyone have any experience with the adjustment of the original unit? (ProTune, Dynotec, Millepercento, GT-Rx ....)? all those appointed, are responsible for removing the issue of "pinging" that that their modification to resolve this one.
 
I think the iridiums just run hotter. The Brisks have a completely different spark pattern. It's the LOR15LGS which replaces the NGK BP6ES, BPR6ES and BPR6EIX.
 
RJVB said:
I think the iridiums just run hotter. The Brisks have a completely different spark pattern. It's the LOR15LGS which replaces the NGK BP6ES, BPR6ES and BPR6EIX.
Click to expand...

Good. I was on the site and could only find a cross reference for the outer plugs. I take it you have concluded the same.
 
NeroGuzzi said:
Brian UK said:
point on ignition timing is because the cam phase sensor is the gubbins which sets the initial ignition timing. Now this is shimmed to give a specific gap between the sensor and ring. Now if this gap is too much/too little (I can't remember which way) it will advance the spark by some amount. This will not be reported by VDSTS or Axone.
This may be clutching at straws, I don't know, but worth a thought?
The actual advance will be fixed by the ECU, varied according to the data it collects from the sensors, but always with reference to the phase pickup.
Click to expand...

Interesting. This should be a relatively easy check. I will give it a shot. To confirm, the workshop manual refers to it as an Engine Speed Sensor. Cut out from pg. 117, section 6-7 below? Is that correct?
Click to expand...
On my Norge parts list it is called a phase/revolution sensor. part no. 01721600 and there are 6 different thickness gaskets listed from 0.3 to 1.5mm. It's just in front of the LH cylinder, on the side of the timing chest.
 
NeroGuzzi said:
Good. I was on the site and could only find a cross reference for the outer plugs. I take it you have concluded the same.
Click to expand...

Exactly. There is no reference for the inner plugs.
 
:arrow: http://www.brisk.biz/upload/fckedit/file/download/Technical_manual_EN_96DPI.pdf

:!:
Spark plugs with poor thermal value can cause an explosion. Colder plug reduces risk of unexpected detonations. On the other hand, such a plug for more heat and therefore adversely affects the emissions have a cold engine. Colder plug does not like frequent cold starts.

:idea:
Hoter - Colder
BPR6ES - BPR7ES
LR15YS - LR14YS
LOR15LGS - LOR14LGS
 
arci said:
:arrow: http://www.brisk.biz/upload/fckedit/file/download/Technical_manual_EN_96DPI.pdf

:!:
Spark plugs with poor thermal value can cause an explosion. Colder plug reduces risk of unexpected detonations. On the other hand, such a plug for more heat and therefore adversely affects the emissions have a cold engine. Colder plug does not like frequent cold starts.

:idea:
Hoter - Colder
BPR6ES - BPR7ES
LR15YS - LR14YS
LOR15LGS - LOR14LGS
Click to expand...

That was a very informative article. Temp sensor and Brisk plugs are on order. I ordered the LOR15LGS. The information in the article opens up some other possibilities if this doesn't do the trick.
 
After talking with a technician from the "BRISK" company recommended the following solution:

If you have an adjustment of the motorcycle, which increases performance, it is recommended to be fitted with motorcycle colder plugs. And if possible, replace the both types of spark plugs.

NGK BPR6ES replace with BRISK LR14YS or Premium Line LOR14LGS
NGK PMR8B replace with BRISK AR10S or Premium Line AOR10LGS

:arrow: I'll try to test
 
arci said:
NGK BPR6ES replace with BRISK LR14YS or Premium Line LOR14LGS
NGK PMR8B replace with BRISK AR10S or Premium Line AOR10LGS

:arrow: I'll try to test
Click to expand...

Okay. I will send back the originals for the above.
 
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