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Syncing Throttle Bodies- Stelvio 8V

Discussion in 'Stelvio Chat & Tech' started by canuck1969, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Tried searching for a detailed procedure for syncing the throttle bodies (with pictures) and have not been able to find one for the Stelvio 8V. The service manual is not bad, but talks about using the bypass screws to adjust. Found a procedure on here for a different bike saying not to use the bypass screws, but only the throttle linkage. Needs some help....carbs I understand, still trying to get used to the FI......

    Is there a detailed procedure.
     
  2. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Look at the VDSTS thread in chat and tech info. It is a sticky. All the 5AMs CARC bikes are done the same way. Sync with the bypass screws closed to get the high speed sync, then open the one with the highest vacuum to get idle sync, then do a TPS reset. Only difference is the location of the bypass screws on the 8 valve TBs.
     
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  3. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Found so more info so I think I have it figured out. Need to pick up a new carb sync gauge. The motion pro goes up to 40 cm hg. Is that enough for the 8V engine.
     
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  4. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Yes it is a good tool. Just be sure to close the throttle slowly from a high RPM so you don't suck in any liquid. Do you also have the software to do a TPS reset?
     
  5. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Software is next on the list. Need to get a new laptop first. Told my wife when I bought this bike that I would not have to buy much to get it where I wanted.......oops.... :lol:
     
  6. Rafael

    Rafael GT Reference

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    I have both the Motion Pro and the CarbMate. The Carbmate is electronic and is so much more easy to use than the Motion Pro. Carbmate has no fluids, so no hanging required or setting up a line of site. They are about the same price at MG Cycle. There are at least 2 other electronic balancers on the market.

    My buddy and I just tuned his Stelvio, It's amazing how little out of tune we found it after 5k miles. We adjusted the Left side air bypass using a ball tip allen wrench, other allen keys or sockets we have are too big for the tight space.

    I think you'll get a kick out of how easy it is to tune a modern guzzi. I'd offer to sell you my carbmate at half price but there's no guarantee the fluid will be in place after shipping. :S

    good luck,
     
  7. charlietuned

    charlietuned Tuned and Synch'ed

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    got the laptop, now need the program [and someone who knows how to use it!]
     
  8. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Just waiting for my centurion S to show up. Picked up a Carbmate and did a quick check. A little off a idle on the 0.5 cm scale and just off at the 1 cm scale at 3000 RPM. Enough to make me do it as soon as my equipment shows up. Looking forward to smoothing out the 3 to 4K range. Better than when I first got it as they sync'd it at the first service, but still room for improvement.

    Now for my question. Reviewed the procedure and pretty clear on how to do it. Took a look at the bypass screws on the TB's and noticed that there is about 1/4 of thread exposed. More on the left than the right but non the less at least a 1/4". From what I understand, assuming everything is balanced, one should be almost closed and the other barely open. Is exposed thread normal and in the closed position you would still see the screw threads or are they turned out more than normal. I guess as long as they are turned out the same it would be balanced but goes against what is typical. I don't want to play with them yet until my software shows up.

    I then read a technical article on MPH's web site that talks about counting the number of turns on the screws when you first close them and then return to spec before you balance them. Number of turns to close????. I may be miss reading this article.

    FI newbie so be gentle..... :oops:
     
  9. charlietuned

    charlietuned Tuned and Synch'ed

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    where can a person get this software???
     
  10. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque Scott Mastrocinque GT Famiglia

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    No Problem. I think it becomes clear when one fully understands what is happening here, so to this end, let me offer this.

    This is my lousy drawing of the throttle-bodies arrangement on the Stelvio.

    [​IMG]

    As you can see, there are butterfly valves inside of the throttle-bodies. As they open, more air is drawn in from the airbox to mix with the injected fuel. The blue line connecting them together, is the linkage rod so that when one turns, the other turns the same amount. The yellow arrow is the location of the fast speed throttle-body balance adjustment screw. The red arrow is the stop plate screw which is factory set and you should NEVER touch otherwise the whole thing is ruined and must be replaced! The green diamond is the TPS sensor which resides on top of the right hand side throttle body. Now let's look at real pics.

    Here is a side view , pointing towards the rear of the left hand (sitting on the bike) throttle-body. The colored arrows match the previous diagram. Yellow is the adjustment screw, red is the stop plate screw you never touch.

    [​IMG]

    Here is the same side taken from a more straight on angle. Again, yellow arrow is adjustment screw, red arrow is factory set stop plate screw you do not touch, and now the white arrow shows the connecting rod which goes over to the right hand side throttle-body (in my lousy graphic, this was the blue line connecting the two throttle-bodies together).

    [​IMG]

    Here is the best view. Notice the white circle which shows the connecting rod going all the way over to the right hand throttlebody, and the red circle which shows the factory set stop plate screw resting against the stop post from the throttle-body. This is why you never adjust the stop plate screw (red arrow) because this distance is a factory calibration which is linked to the fuel injection software as to it's position, approximately 4.9 degrees. Basically this distance is a constant so that the fuel injection map, which depends upon throttle POSITION (i.e. open or closed within it's range of motion) is calibrated at a ZERO point. It will make more sense in a moment.

    [​IMG]

    This is the throttle-body on the right-hand side. The green diamond is the TPS sensor. The white circle shows the connecting rod coming from the left-hand side which connects to the right-hand side. The throttle cable only attaches to the left-hand side throttle-body. All movement on the right-hand side is controlled by this linkage rod. You never adjust or change this rod. It too, is factory set.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Now, let's look at the bleed screws. Left-hand side first. It is the blue arrow and you can make out the hex head on the inside of the screw. You can also see an excellent view of the factory set stop plate screw in the red circle.

    Also look carefully at the yellow arrow (the fast speed throttle body balancing screw). See the mechanism with the spring? When you turn this screw, it allows the secondary plate (on the right side of the spring)to move INDEPENDENT from the left side of the spring. So, the plate on the left side of the spring is the left-hand throttle-body. It NEVER moves from the factory set position. The plate on the right side of the spring, is connected to the control rod which goes over to the right-hand side throttle body. Thus, when you adjust this screw, you are physically moving the butterfly valve in the right hand throttle-body! Get it? )You can see the two independent plates in the second photo) The left side never moves adjustment wise, but the right side can be adjusted in or out as needed to balance the high speed balance. Remember, the TPS sensor sits on top of the right-hand throttle-body - i.e. the one that can be MOVED. The fuel injection computer orders the injectors to do their thing based upon certain conditions which it always is evaluating, one being throttle position, and if we moved the butterfly valve on the right-hand throttle-body, the TPS will read an incorrect position (voltage) from the TPS sensor from the get go and our fuel injection map will be out of alignment with actual operating conditions.

    Now this is WHY you need to be able to reset the TPS. Remember that the TPS position is linked to the fuel injection map in the ECU. In order for the throttle position and the fuel injection map to be in alignment there has to be a synchronized ZERO point. That point is the value set by the factory on the left-hand set plate screw of usually 4.9 degrees and this is why you NEVER adjust this screw. But we do reset the TPS so that the altered-position of the right-hand throttle-body, is set to match the factory baseline setting of 4.9, (this is what the left-hand side will ALWAYS BE - IT CANNOT EVER MOVE SO LONG AS YOU DON'T TOUCH THE STOP PLATE SCREW) regardless of where it actually is, so that everything is in alignment. Left-hand side physically and permanently always at 4.9 and right-hand side electronically reset to 4.9, irregardless of where it actually might be in order to properly balance the throttle-bodies. Does it now make perfect sense? Now you understand precisely WHAT is happening and when.

    So, when we adjust the fast speed adjustment screw, we are moving the right-hand throttle body out of alignment from the permanent factory setting on the left-hand side, in essence, because the TPS sits on top of the right-hand side, we have moved the alignment of the throttle position with the fuel injection map. Bad thing - crappy running motorcycle.

    So, when we RESET the TPS, we are telling the ECU that the value it is reading from the TPS sensor on the right-hand throttle body, should be the ZERO point (in actuality, the 4.9 factory setting which is what the left-hand side is), REGARDLESS of where the right-hand side has been moved to, thus aligning the throttle position and fuel injection map, while maintaining the actual true zero point which is physically set by the stop plate screw on the left-hand throttle-body at the factory.

    We are commanding the ECU to recognize and program that at whatever position the right-hand throttle-body is at right at that moment (remember, we may have moved it left or right by adjusting the fast speed throttle-body balance screw), should be reset to the baseline 4.9 (in this particular model, others are different). We are setting that ZERO point to align the TPS sensor and the FI map to the actual operating conditions (the real position of the right-hand throttle-body).

    Had the factory put the TPS sensor on the left-hand throttle body, we would never need to reset the TPS and could move the fast speed adjustment screw anytime we needed to without worrying about a TPS reset. However, because they put the sensor on the RIGHT-HAND throttle-body, and because this position can be changed via the fast speed adjustment screw, we must be able to tell the computer to reset the zero position (which it reads on the right-hand throttle body via the TPS sensor) after we've made changes to the fast speed balance adjustment screw. I hope this makes complete sense now. :geek:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Let's look at the right-hand side air bleed screw. Again, you can see the hex head inside of the bleed screw. These screws are a BEAR to get to, especially the left-hand side.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    So, the general idea is this.

    1. Connect your Centurion to the bike and turn the ignition switch on. Reset the TPS with the Centurion. (We are establishing a ZERO point based upon the position of the right-hand butterfly valve position).

    2. Close BOTH air bleed screws. More than likely, only 1 will be open. Remember, closed, but not crushed! A light touch works really well here.

    3. Place a large high-velocity fan right in front of the motorcycle, blowing towards the motorcycle to keep air flowing over it during this procedure. This is a MUST DO to avoid overheating! Bring engine to operating temperature > 60 degree Celsius (The Centurion you can buy from Todd here on the forum, will display the engine temperature from the engine temp sensor, very handy).

    4. Turn off engine, attach your CarbMate, mercury stick, or whatever tool you are using to balance the throttle-bodies, to your vacuum ports on the bottom of the throttle-bodies, one on each side.

    5. Turn engine on, and have an assistant raise speed to approximately 3800-4000 rpm and hold it there steady. Look at your balancer, and adjust the fast speed throttle-body balancing screw to bring the throttle-bodies into alignment. Turning the screw one way will raise the right-hand vacuum and turning it the other way will lower the right-hand vacuum. You will understand when you do it. CAUTION! It is easy to push on the screw while you are turning it, and this will raise the rpm erratically (you are pressing in the linkage and moving the connecting rod). The trick here is to ROTATE the adjustment screw WITHOUT pushing against it. It takes some getting used to. When you are doing it, you will instantly notice if you are pushing against the screw because your engine speed will change. Personally, I use a socket attached to a screwdriver-type handle to rotate the screw but you will have to scrape away some of the yellow marking paint for your socket to slide on easily. The socket allows for better rotation without pushing into the screw. When the fast speed adjustment is balanced, release the throttle back to idle. Turn off the engine and reset the TPS again. (We are resetting the zero point now that we have changed the position of the right-hand throttle-body via the fast speed balancing screw). When done. Disconnect your Centurion from the motorcycle.

    6. Start engine again and blip the throttle and then release it and allow it to click back against the stop screw. Now at idle, what does your balancing tool say? More than likely it will read different values. The side that is HIGHER, is the side you want to open the air bleed screw on, thus allowing more air to enter and thereby reduce it's vacuum. (Don't touch the other side air bleed screw. It's not necessary.) Only one side is the higher side and if we open that side's air bleed screw, it's vacuum will become less, and as you adjust (open) the screw, the balancer tool you are using will show the throttle-bodies come into idling alignment. Once the alignment is the same for both throttle-bodies, by having adjusted ONLY the higher side, you are done!

    7. Turn off engine, disconnect balancer tool, cap off your vacuum ports, and smile. You did it.

    I sincerely hope that this explanation helps you. Good Luck! :D
     
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  11. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque Scott Mastrocinque GT Famiglia

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    Buy the Centurion-S from Todd here on the forum. You need a portable computer to run it on which you can take to your motorcycle and connect it to. ;)

    https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/208/8276.html
     
  12. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Great right up. Noticed your bypass screw looks like mine (exposed threads)......

    Good to go....
     
  13. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque Scott Mastrocinque GT Famiglia

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  14. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    What engine temp do you do your syncing at. The manual just says above 60C (140F). Thought I read somewhere that it was best to do it between 140 and 200F. Then read that you should go for a ride and let if warm up to operating temp. I have come back from rides and the engine temp was >250F (as read by the VDST). I know the balance will change slightly with temp. Bike running smooth now syncing at 190F but wondering is hotter better.
     
  15. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    As long as you are above the 140 you are fine. Too hot could lead to other issues.
     
  16. Campagman

    Campagman Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

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    Simple question, what is the tapping in the throttle body for the vac gauge connection, assume its the little Allen screw just before the throttle body bolts to the inlet port, looks like 5 or 6 mm.
    My gauges are old ones from a friend and they have short brass adapters with much finer threads.
     
  17. Campagman

    Campagman Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

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    Found it in the parts list M6:)
     
  18. BritGit

    BritGit Just got it firing!

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    A newbie to this site and to the NTX, greatly appreciate the step by step 'how-to' write up. Followed along and it worked perfectly, along the way I did a couple of things that helped me execute the work. So a little give back here to the community, though ideas are rarely new so someone has done these already I would guess :

    The air bleed adjusters are tricky to get to especially on the LHS per the write up...however, removing the starter motor cover gave a whole lot more room and actually made the LHS easier to work with than the RHS. For other newbs and my failing memory...you need a 5mm hex ('12 NTX)for the adjusters.

    The 'someone' to hold open the throttle steady at 3,800 to 4,000rpm would have been my wife :inlove:. In all probability that would have ended badly due to impatience and cursing on my part... :oops:. My work around was to use feeler gauges in between the stop plate and kiss of death screw...I only needed about 1mm to get to the desired revs with no load on the engine. This also allowed the set screw to be gently braced from the rear while doing the adjustment (and it needed it big time). The crash bars were a perfect prop for the feelers! Pics below;

    20150529_100626.jpg 20150529_100126.jpg ...and looking up from below.... 20150529_100602.jpg

    Looking forward to enjoying the NTX and the GT community.

    Cheers.

    John.
     
  19. Ed Baker

    Ed Baker Just got it firing!

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    How often do you actually need to do this throttle body sync? I never did it in 80K on my last twin.
     
  20. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Doesn't hurt to check it at each oil change, but once a year or so is probably plenty. It may or may not need adjustment when you check the sync. Most wear on the linkage is when the bike is new, then it settles down. Since I have all the equipment and software required, I tend to check a little more frequently than most.
     

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