V7 Cafe Difficult to start when cold

[JasonC]

Oops, I spoke too soon.

This AM required several attempts before the bike would finally start. This intermittent problem is really strange.

I guess I'll have to learn to live with it.

Jason

 

[Vagrant]

Are you using the fast idle lever? If not, do you give it just a tiny bit of throttle? Is it fireing or no popping at all?

 

[john zibell]

Oops, I spoke too soon.

This AM required several attempts before the bike would finally start. This intermittent problem is really strange.

I guess I'll have to learn to live with it.

Jason

When we had a 750 Breva, we found slowly opening the throttle when attempting to start solved the issue. You still need to get a TPS reset.

 

[JasonC]

Are you using the fast idle lever? If not, do you give it just a tiny bit of throttle? Is it fireing or no popping at all?

Yes, I've tried the fast idle lever and sometimes it makes a difference and other times it doesn't. And I've tired various throttle positions, which sometimes makes a difference. It acts like there's no fuel, so no popping until it finally starts.

Jason

 

[JasonC]

When we had a 750 Breva, we found slowly opening the throttle when attempting to start solved the issue. You still need to get a TPS reset.

Indeed, I plan on visiting Mike at MPH to see if he can reset the TPS.

Jason

 

[john zibell]

Indeed, I plan on visiting Mike at MPH to see if he can reset the TPS.

Jason

A phone call would save you the trip if he can't.

 

[JasonC]

A phone call would save you the trip if he can't.

UPDATE: I visited with Mike at MPH this past Friday regarding his capability to reset the TPS on my 2010 V7 Cafe. Mike said that the software he uses for resetting, GuzziXXXX, has a glitch or something in it and therefore would not attempt to reset my TPS. What's more he postulated that the TPS is not the root cause of my intermittent cold starting problems.

So I'll keep trying to figure this out and will report when and if I find a solution.

Jason

 

[V700Steve]

I would have left it for Mike to sort.

 

[Vagrant]

He knows his stuff

 

[JasonC]

UPDATE:

Instead of a lean condition I thought perhaps an overly rich condition was causing the hard start problem.

So, I deleted all the fueling numbers in the 0% throttle column and inserted (4) in the 1,000 RPM row, which was (12). There were (14s) in all the other RPM rows under the 0% column header except for RPM rows: 1250; 1500 and 1750 which were (25); (0) and (0) respectively. These are now all (0) except for the aforementioned (4) in the 1,000 RPM row.

The bike now starts cold with the throttle lever activated and with several rotation of the motor--- much, much better. I will monitor over the next several days, adjust the fueling if necessary and report my findings.

Jason

 

[scottmastrocinque]

So, I deleted all the fueling numbers in the 0% throttle column and inserted (4) in the 1,000 RPM row, which was (12). There were (14s) in all the other RPM rows under the 0% column header except for RPM rows: 1250; 1500 and 1750 which were (25); (0) and (0) respectively. These are now all (0) except for the aforementioned (4) in the 1,000 RPM row.

I wonder what software you used to do this but… you are making gigantic changes on stuff it appears that you do not fully understand at all, and you have no diagnostic equipment to confirm if those changes are beneficial at all, something I am entirely suspect of.

The fact that you don’t know how to tell lean from rich running by simple spark plug observation, tells me a great deal about this whole situation.

Truth be told…This is what drives me absolutely crazy and I just have to shake my head and go about my own way…

 

[JasonC]

I wonder what software you used to do this but… you are making gigantic changes on stuff it appears that you do not fully understand at all, and you have no diagnostic equipment to confirm if those changes are beneficial at all, something I am entirely suspect of.

The fact that you don’t know how to tell lean from rich running by simple spark plug observation, tells me a great deal about this whole situation.

Truth be told…This is what drives me absolutely crazy and I just have to shake my head and go about my own way…

Yes, I do read spark plugs and have for many years. However, a simple spark plug observation is not as accurate today, owing to the ethanol in the fuel. Nevertheless, you can learn general information from reading them, as you have alluded to.

For instance, after a highway run the spark plugs have a clean appearance, suggesting proper fueling at higher RPMs. However, after riding around town at low speeds/RPMs the plugs will show a darker color, suggesting a richer condition.

So, I know that I have slightly rich condition at low RPM.

But what I don't know, is how the starting circuit operates in an electronic fuel injected system . In other words could the motor be under fueled when starting cold and then become rich after it warms up? And hard starting when cold but not when hot was pointing me to a lean condition.

At any rate, the changes I've made to the fueling seem to help. However, I still have that odd moment where it requires two or three attempts for the motor to start when cold, but never a problem when hot.

This intermittent problem suggests an electronic glitch of some sort, to me anyway.

No, I don't have an exhaust gas analyzer, which makes interpreting fueling changes difficult, but not impossible. Notably I do have extensive experience tuning quite a variety of carburetors such as: AMAL; S.U.; Mikuni; Weber; Delorto; Keihin and Solex. I currently have vehicles with S.U., Keihin and Solex and they are properly tuned. But my electronic fuel injection experience is limited.

Scott, don't go crazy on me and walk away yet.

I'll post a snip of my fuel map tomorrow for anyone interested.

Jason

 

[JasonC]

Further to my previous post, here's a snip of my fuel map.

The "2" in the 0 Throttle column against the 1000 RPM row helps reduces popping on trailing throttle. I'm still slightly rich at low RPMs and small throttle openings. And leaning out these areas seems to reduce but not eliminate the hard-starting with the motor cold, which seems counterintuitive to me.

Jason

 

[V700Steve]

I use a Colortune(glass bottom spark plug), to set idle mixture, seems to work better for me than a gas analyzer.
I didn't know you had a PC on the bike.

 

[tobinh]

I think you've lost the plot a bit here, perhaps. changing the fueling when you suspect an electronic glitch just doesn't quite make sense.

back to baseline! time to reevaluate

 

[JasonC]

I think you've lost the plot a bit here, perhaps. changing the fueling when you suspect an electronic glitch just doesn't quite make sense.

back to baseline! time to reevaluate

Yes, but I would still like to see a bit "cleaner" plugs at small throttle openings and low RPMs.

Jason

 

[JasonC]

Further to discussions about the receptacle for the...

I'm afraid the previous owner stripped the threads in the plastic receptacle, hence the inability for the sensor tighten much beyond finger tight.

I wonder if the plastic bit is replaceable?

Jason

P.S.: I answered my own question. The receptacle is P/N GU03163330 if anyone is interested.

Actually I just discovered today that the plastic threads in the temperature sensor receptacle were not stripped after all.

Instead of the sensor getting tight when installing it in the receptacle, I discovered that the plastic receptacle was simply spinning on its copper base, giving the sensation of stripped threads.

I purchased a new receptacle and it too will spin on its base with a "nominal" amount of torque. So the receptacle and sensor are merely snug in their respective homes. Since it's not a pressure containing component and doesn't have to seal any liquids, I guess snug is good enough for heat transfer.

Jason

 

[V700Steve]

It's marginal stuff on the bigblock ones, I put a dab of copper anti sneeze on the tip, feels like you described but they don't always touch. The copper stuff makes the transfer.

 

[JasonC]

If anyone is interested, here’s my resolve for the cold-start problem. It’s more of a work-around than an actual solution, but it’s effective.

I turn on the ignition and wait for the instrument light test to complete (I’m not sure this is a necessary step, but that’s what I do).

Next I rotate the throttle approximately ¼-inch as measured circumferentially. I then press the starter button and after a very brief moment, perhaps 1 to 2 seconds, I completely release the throttle to its idle position. Immediately the motor will start and run at a slightly slower than normal idle. After a couple of blips of the throttle I click into gear and away I go with no problems.

Jason