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Wheel Spin - Is this Normal or ?

Sempervee1

Sempervee1

Tuned and Synch'ed
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
Messages
85
Location
Seattle wa
New to me 07 Norge with 48K on it as some of you know. I pulled off wheel to replace front tire (Dunlop Road smart 3) when I replaced the wheel and everything torqued correctly I spun the wheel, of course off the ground, and ONLY get 1/2 wheel spin. Is this normal? Loosened the calipers and I get 2-3 spins so I know the axle and wheel bearings are OK. Loosened the axle nut and brakes and axle pinch bolts to jostle the bike up and down on the forks with brakes held. No change no matter what I do. I wonder if the pistons are not returning normally? The pads are in great shape almost new but have 10+K miles on them when I looked at the service record. Any insight or recommendations? What am I missing?

I guess going for a ride and seeing if they get HOT or smoke? How hot is too hot? Thanks...
 
Do not hold brakes!! That is for drum brake systems. When the calipers are engaged they can move the sliders and cause binding. Just mount the wheel, tighten the axle, then the pinch bolts. Mount calipers last. I had to replace a brake system on a 1100 Breva from a guy doing what you did.
 
Well no luck with that John. Took it out for a 10 mile 2 lane road. Stopped to check and no difference and no difference in heat of either discs that i can tell from just touching with my hand. What are my options? Change brake pads? Rebuild pistons with new seals? How can I tell if they are bad? Is it safe to ride? Can a rebuild wait a month until winter comes? Thanks for any input..
 
Sempervee1 said:
Well no luck with that John. Took it out for a 10 mile 2 lane road. Stopped to check and no difference and no difference in heat of either discs that i can tell from just touching with my hand. What are my options? Change brake pads? Rebuild pistons with new seals? How can I tell if they are bad? Is it safe to ride? Can a rebuild wait a month until winter comes? Thanks for any input..
Click to expand...
Does the wheel spin free? There will be some drag from the pads. If you didn't add brake fluid, there shouldn't be an excess. Are you able to push back both pads on one caliper? If so the return port on the master is functioning. Hard to diagnose via the internet. Is there a mechanic in your area familiar with Guzzis? If you need brake parts check the Store tab, and if the part you need isn't listed use the Contact tab as Todd can get many factory parts.
 
Yes the wheel spins free especially with the calipers loose 2-3 full spins versus 1/2 spin with calipers torqued to specs. One side is no different then the other. I had the caliper pistons pushed nearly the way out with the brake pads removed to clean with tooth brush and simple green. Pushed pistons back in and tightened and loosened every combination that I can come up with axel, caliper, without brakes on with brakes on repositioning pads, etc ,etc. Will pull off calipers again tomorrow with mission to observe both pistons per caliper. ** I will take notice of whether I can push BOTH back in at the same time per your recommendation. Thanks so much.
 
First off, Remove the front wheel again. Be sure to grease you axle so it slides in easily. If you have not yet, apply anti seize compound to the pinch bolts. Re-install and just slide the axle in, tighten the axle, then the pinch bolts. Then mount your calipers. There will always be some drag once the front brakes have been applied as the brake pads may drag a little on the rotors,
 
There will always be some slight drag on the front brakes of a double disc setup, with the bike sitting on a lift or it’s center stand. Always.

The pads never fully “retract”.

There is no mechanism to return the pistons back except normal vibrations of the wheel which do not occur in a static situation, only a dynamic (riding) one.

From what I have read that you wrote, everything is behaving exactly as expected.

When I do a front brake pads renewal at my workshop, I set the axle and torque it, then the pinch bolts and torque them.

Then I spin the wheel.

It will rotate for some time on its own with the brake calipers bungeed up away from the wheel.

I then set the calipers, with the bolts finger tight, apply the brakes multiple times to take up the slack and align them and push the hydraulic fluid back down into the caliper and then do the final torque of the calipers.
 
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Go for a run and try not to use the front brakes, when you get back touch the rotors and they should be cool. When you apply disc brakes, the piston moves a tiny amount and the rubber seal around the piston distorts slightly and when you release the pressure the seal reverts to its original position and pulls the pads back a minuscule amount. As Scott says "everything is behaving exactly as expectedl"
 
Thanks Gents, I am going to Re-Do again per John and Scott guidance, then as you said, take it for a spin without using the front brakes and feel for any heat. Taking closer look at pads also to see if i perhaps I can tell if I replaced them differently then how they came out?
 
Something isn't right. I suspect that your pistons have debris on them on the side where you cannot see which is preventing their releasing. I see this quite often. I've written about this here and will see if I can find the post. I'll edit this and attach the link when I do.

Do you have the wheel put together correctly is my next question. Unfortunately, my mind is fogged today with customer work and my Norge is at home. I cannot remember if there is a spacer on that model but I believe there is.

Well, I couldn't find my brake point but here are some pictures to demonstrate what I am referring to. A layer of crud builds up on the piston, which will prevent the piston from being able to fully recede back past the seal and into the caliper. I use a piston removal tool to rotate the piston in place in the caliper and completely remove all of this debris. If it is really bad, then a disassembly, cleaning, and new seals and a full brake bleed would be warranted.

IMG 7205 IMG 7206 IMG 7208 IMG 7209 IMG 7210



Ok, here is the schematic and I was correct. There is a spacer. Did you assemble the wheel like this? The Phonic Wheel (16) should be on the right hand side of the motorcycle (L and R is always based upon sitting on the motorcycle) so that spacer is also on the right hand side.

Something is amiss in your wheel. Bearings maybe? If you disconnect the calipers and bungee them up out of the way, how does the wheel rotate? If it spins smoothly, then the issue is with the calipers not allowing the pistons to fully release and retract. Like I said, that would most likely be a debris line on the piston on the side where you cannot see it. The piston would have to be rotated in place with a specialized tool, to clean that side up.

Screen Shot 2022 10 07 at 124513 PM



This is a brake piston tool, which allows you to grab the piston on the inside, and spin it in place within the caliper.

51RppCFXmkL AC SL1200
 
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Agree Scott. If this is how it spins after he mounted the wheel as we told him something is off.
 
Yes, as i took it apart I noted only 1 spacer on the Norge on the right hand side (ABS side) of the bike. No spacer as depicted on the Left hand side. ** Back to the Garage for the Redo.
 
2 is an internal spacer. You wouldn't be able to see that as it would be hidden by the wheel bearings.

Do the wheel rotation with the calipers totally removed and bungeed out of the way. Let's see how she rotates then? Make another video please and post.
 
Wheel is turning perfectly. The calipers are not retracting normally. I'm sure the piston has a line of debris on it like the ones in the photos I posted above.

Remove the pads and look at the pistons. I'm sure they are dirty and there will be a line of debris that is unable to retract back into the caliper seal.

Yes, it is normal if you push one piston in a two pot caliper, that the other pot will want to push out. The fluid takes the path of least resistance and tries to move the other piston rather than return all the way to the reservoir. You need to push them both out at the same time to get the fluid to return to the reservoir.

Also, check the reservoir and make sure that the fluid is NOT AT THE MAX mark. This is another thing people do for some stupid reason. The level should be between the low and full marks but not at the FULL mark.
 
No improvement on redoing installation thus I will be removing calipers only and taking out pads to move pistons out to clean again. If one or more should fall out I would imagine pushing back in and having to Re Bleed the system again. Thanks for walking me thru this.
 
They should not fall out. You would have to force them out under pressure. Do you have the proper tool to rotate the pistons in place? You need to check that there is no debris line on the piston all the way around it.
 
scottmastrocinque said:
They should not fall out. You would have to force them out under pressure. Do you have the proper tool to rotate the pistons in place? You need to check that there is no debris line on the piston all the way around it.
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I can finger spin them out to clean or alternatively use a set of plyers with fabic for slip inside the piston to apply pressure to inner walls to pull out I am hoping without damaging the piston. lubing pistons with a bit of Dot 4. Hopefully that is all that is needed or else I will be buying and using my first caliper rebuild kit.. I;ve already cleaned them all once but apparently not well enough.
 
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