Wish Us Luck!

[scottmastrocinque]

Good morning!

Well, I am beyond honored this morning. One of the members here, arrived from Greenville, SC yesterday late afternoon, to my workshop in Northwest Ohio. He drove over 600 miles on his journey, to bring his motorcycle to me. I am truly honored and humbled by this.

He has had driveability issues with his 2011 Norge for over 2 years, that no other mechanic or shop has been able to properly diagnose or repair.

Sight unseen, I am 98% sure I know what is wrong with Jeremie’s motorcycle. He came with his Dad, a retired BMW motorcycle mechanic to have me put my paws on his motorcycle and hopefully work some Moto Guzzi magic!

I’m eating breakfast at the Waffle House, getting ready to go into my workshop. I want to get everything setup to do the work on Jeremie’s beautiful Norge before they arrive back to my workshop at 7am this morning. (They wanted to meet earlier as they are early risers!)

I’m going to document this job to post here (if I am correct - Just kidding. I’ll post win or lose) so stay tuned.

Here is his post about his issues with his Norge.

2011 Norge bogs down in all gears @ 2400-3600 RPM

I have a 2011 Norge (~60K mi) am having issues with and wondering I anyone has any suggestions/thoughts. I have scoured the web and Guzzi sites and I can’t seem to find someone else with the same problem and/or a possible fix. ISSUE: engine sputters/pops/bogs down in all gears between the RPMs...

www.guzzitech.com

Fancy yourself a guess as to what I think it is or what you think it is? Write it out here before I come back to post what happens. I will write what I find and did to repair her.

So, wish us “Good Luck!” and I’ll keep my fingers crossed that I’m a good mechanic.

This is going to be fun!

 

[Raven]

This sounds interesting.
I'm just jealous they could ride there still. Winter has arrived here finally after a wonderful autumn.
Have fun.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Oh no...they trailered. It was 25 F yesterday! The check ride will be VERY COLD this afternoon but if I get this correct as I expect, it will be worth it!

 

[Raven]

Now I feel better.

 

[Bill Hagan]

Kathi and I drove back from Erie yesterday. This latest storm is not their first winter rodeo, and they thus have the wherewithal and practiced skill set of planning, timing, and execution to get it done right, quickly, and effectively. As someone who grew up in the U.S. south, it's impressive to watch.

For us, however, Erie and lake-effect snow was no particular challenge. While the Mistake on the Lake got its share of white stuff, Erie did not get slammed as was/is Buffalo. I-90 and I-79 were, for the most part, dry and clear.

But, my oh my, the stretch of the Penn Turnpike east of Pittsburgh to Bedford was nerve-wracking. With rare exceptions, drivers were prudent. I think most of us out there were most worried about being in today's headlines about "Massive Multi-Vehicle Crash Strands Hundreds."

As for trailering in that sort of weather, BTDT ...

... Needed a case lot of Ballistol to clean up that!

Oh, my uneducated guess, something a miss -- NPI -- with cam-position sensor?

Good luck finding the culprit(s).

Bill

 

[mattstark]

I'll be watching this thread for sure. I love a good troubleshooting as long as I'm not having to do it myself. Happy hunting, you guys!

 

[V700Steve]

I used to work there before retiring.
If no one has looked in airbox, there may be wadds of foam & foil in it.
If no codes show it's mechanical, something the ECU has no sensor for.
Scott will certainly find it-------------------no guessing about it.
No one mentioned it but maybe this one needs rollers and only recall was the 1st one to get the DLC coated flatties. Being the 1st 4V Norge.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Well this is a conundrum.

This is a 2011 Norge 8V.

When I hooked the motorcycle up to my Socio-300 computer system (Professional System from TechnoResearch That Is No Longer Available), it saw both Λ (lambda-sensors) but the mV readings from one of the 2 sensors, was was different than the other one. The differences were huge, like 78 vs. 850 kind of different.

We removed the erratic sensor with great difficulty, as it turns out that the initial cut for the O2 bung, was very poorly done, and there was the metal from the poor cut, which protruded into the area of the threads, but under the threads. So when they screwed the O2 sensor in at the factory, it bent the hell out of it on one side, and scraped the metal badly on the other side. I suspect that it banged at it from the vibration of the motorcycle, and was able to completely deform the sensor head.

We replaced the sensor with a new one, and the mV values came into alignment, but the Left side would switch from Open to Closed loop when the temperature got hot enough, while the Right side, would only stay in Open loop and never switch to Closed loop.

We cooled the motorcycle with a giant high velocity fan, and could repeat this scenario over and over. Both sensors starting in OPEN loop, then only 1 moving to CLOSED loop. We switched sensors left to right and the sensors work fine, but the left side always moves from OPEN to CLOSED while the right side stays in OPEN all the time, and never ever flips status.

The apparent differences between the Closed Loop values, and the Open Loop values, causes the idle to hunt.

When you move off idle and go up through the gears, there is now, no longer any more flat spot of hesitation, between 1800-4000 rpm’s, but just this lumpy idle which comes and goes, as the Left sensor moves from Closed loop back to Open loop, and then back to Closed, while the right side stays Open nonstop.

I have never seen an ECU do this - only allow one sensor to move to Closed loop.

It’s as if the right side has been locked in Open Loop mode and will not budge.

We also started with a valve adjustment. Cleaned the stepper motor, and performed TPS reset and reinitialization of the self learning parameters of the O2 sensor logic.

Runs great other than this O2 status issue and a sometimes lumpy idle.

I would welcome any ideas as I have never seen this before.

What would cause one λ (lambda-sensor) to stay locked in Open loop mode while the other cycles to Closed loop as expected and then upon returning to idle, switches back to Open loop, then upon raising engine speed and temp, again cycles to Closed loop as expected?

One side is working exactly as expected while the other just sits frozen in Open loop mode.

This is infinitely repeatable through several cooling and running cycles.

It’s VERY strange to me.

Thanks guys!

 

[Raven]

When I installed my wide-band sensors for the PC/AT300, I had the same issue with one of the original sensors. By the time I was able to get it out it was pretty mangled.

 

[john zibell]

All I can think of is the original programming of the ECU has an error. Perhaps Todd can reflash an original program for the 2011 Norge to the ECU to correct the issue.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

STATUS UPDATE: Well, this morning, we rolled her outside the shop, started her up, and she dropped into a perfect cadence and idle. As Jeremie suited up for a little morning ride in the 20 degree weather, we let her warm up in front of my workshop.

Jeremie then took her for a good test ride and all of the bucking was gone, and the idle was significantly smoother. Sometimes, good things happen, truly.

Jeremie and his Dad, Kevin, (a retired BMW Motorcycle mechanic himself) were just wonderful during this whole experience, and it was truly an honor and a humbling moment to have customers travel 1400 miles roundtrip just to come have me repair their Moto Guzzi motorcycle.

The best part was when Jeremie told his motorcycle, "I missed you Girl!". He is very pleased with the way she runs now.

I've told them that they should get Todd's Flash Tool so that they can do TPS resets and that Todd could most likely create a map or use the factory map as the Norge is bone stock other than a disconnected Charcoal Canister.

It is distressing that others, (Raven) experienced the same poor construction of the O2 bung hole. I thought this had to be a 1 time fluke, but guess not. Makes you wonder how many other motorcycles went out with this problem and how many went undiagnosed because there was no fault code that got thrown. The only way to have discovered this issue, was to logically think it through and check out everything based upon my mental diagnosis of the root cause of the problem.

It is also so very unfortunate, that Sandro at TechnoResearch in Michigan, stopped making tools for our motorcycles because the Centurion, Alaris, and especially my Socio-300 system, are all outstanding tools for the ECU and ABS systems on our Moto Guzzi motorcycles. I am very grateful that I got these tools back when I did. To his credit, Sandro now focuses on Harley Davidson and Indian motorcycle systems, and I of course, have his most recent Harley platform in my workshop. It is also an excellent tool of the highest quality.

Todd's Flash Tool is also in this same category. It is an excellent, high-quality, professional tool and worth every penny you pay for it.

Thanks everybody for your input and comments! I really love this famigllia that we have here at GuzziTech. It's something very special indeed and we need to preserve, protect, and care for it. It is irreplaceable.

Jeremie and Kevin just drove away. 700 miles to go! Godspeed gentlemen and thanks so very much for entrusting your motorcycle to me. It was a wonderful experience and I enjoyed it immensely.

Now, I'm going home for a much desired, 2 whole days off!

 

[Vagrant]

I would assume Todds map shuts off the O2 sensors. If not I'm sure he can do that. Just map it and be done with the POS sensors. Both failed on my V7 III and gave me trouble on the 2020 V85.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

I believe that O2 sensors improve the operation of our motorcycles. That's also why Todd's Full Monty PC/AT system utilizes them.

I think just switching them off, isn't an ideal situation. But this is just my opinion.

I'm sure that somehow the software on this Norge got modified to cause this open/closed loop issue. I'm also pretty sure that once Jeremie gets the Flash Tool, and Todd can help him with a correct map, it will be even better than it is now.

Nevertheless, I do really appreciate everybody here who has responded and given their input. Thank you very much.

 

[V700Steve]

OK, I knew you would find it!! The wrench at Marrietta should have picked it up for sure if looking at readings.
All I can think of is like John mentioned. Maybe from the issue w/O2 it somehow compromised the map in ECU and shut off that sensor. Could have been a bad map from new. On the 1st 8V Norges there was a updated map we had to install because of runability issues. It was to be put in at 1st service if customer came back. But you wouldn't know till it was plugged in to the Axione, then it would come up on screen. It may still have original map. It could have shut off that sensor in the map when it was compromised 9 yrs ago. Don't know if ECU does that.. You would certainly think it would have the big red triangle on the dash and errors in the faults, stored & active.
You could put in one of your 5AM ECU's to check & see if it changes.
I would think to fix you would reload latest map for stock & see what happens OR get a map from Todd in the his box that shuts off the O2 sensors and runs open loop. (used to be called his race map). OR convert it to run Todd's mapp + PC & Autotune.
I can try to find info in my notes for latest 8V Norge map or may be here in years ago posts when they were new.
Good Luck Scott.
Edit: By the time I typed this you posted fixed WELL DONE & no issues.

 

[Vagrant]

It truly is a shame there are so few real techs left out there. Just parts replacers.
Also a shame nobody will look at a ten year old mechanical object anymore. A friend has been turned down by several dealers on a 20 year old four wheeler that looks like new. It just needs a simple carb cleaning.

 

[Moto-Uno]

Carb ? Good lord man , those things were old when I was a kid . And I still luv 'em ! Peter

 

[scottmastrocinque]

It truly is a shame there are so few real techs left out there. Just parts replacers.
Also a shame nobody will look at a ten year old mechanical object anymore. A friend has been turned down by several dealers on a 20 year old four wheeler that looks like new. It just needs a simple carb cleaning.

My workshop is filled to the teeth, with motorcycles, scooters, and quads that no other place will look at.

The most ridiculous example of this dealer madness, is this one.

It is a 2009, Yamaha Vino 125 scooter. (Yes, it's older than 10 years so no dealer will even consider looking at it!) Did I mention that it has a massive 765 miles on it? The dealer refuses to provide ROUTINE SERVICE on it, and THEY SOLD IT TO MY CUSTOMER BRAND NEW IN 2009! It's absolutely ridiculous.

I have tons of stuff like this!

In fact, in that same photo, you will notice the pristine very vintage Honda 175. It's MINT. Only I will work on it. Also, the white 1999 Harley Police motorcycle in the background. Same pathetic story. Nobody will touch it because it is "too old".

All of them are mint condition examples that no dealers will even get within arms length of. In truth, the only reason they won't work on something like this, is because the $10/hr morons they have "working" in the shop, don't know a damn thing about motorcycles. Truly.

I'm sorry, but my generation is the last of the real mechanics. We are a dying beed indeed.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

 

[Raven]

That's the best colour for a Norge!

 

[scottmastrocinque]

I think so too. I love the white.