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Charging System Failure-Boise Break Down

I agree with John concerning the VR. The 15.5V+ concerns me as that indicates the VR is not regulating. It sounds like it is overheating and shutting down (11V) and then coming on (13.9V) and then over regulating (15.5+V) and the cycle repeats itself. Either faulty or undersized for the alternator output. Assuming you checked the main connection for power (red/green) at the alternator itself and it was in good condition.

Which one did you get? I see several on that site but honestly can't see one that matches the wattage of the alternator. That being said, you stated that it was an aftermarket alternator so not even sure what the wattage is (Stock is 540W) They seem to have one that is variable voltage. Perhaps it is not set properly if that is the one you got???

I had said bullet connectors, not butt connectors. Will have the same outcome but you won't be able to disconnect the butt connectors if you need to

Those black wires coming from the alternator and back to the lighting relay are most likely your exciter. Interesting that those wires are not on the 2008 drawing, but they are on the 8V model drawing, but now multiple connector on the 8V. Sounds like another Guzzi mid year change. That is how the new bikes are wired. With that setup, you should not have any continuity to the battery positive with the key on. Power is only sent there when the bike is running. It prevents the electro magnets in the alternator from turning on before the alternator is actually on. The old wiring had the exciter being powered directly from the ignition switch when you turn the key. Guess that created problems.

Go back and re-read my original posts. When the bike is not charging (ie 11 V), are the head lights on. If they are, that means the wires to the exciter are getting power (assuming there is not a broken wire) as the lighting relay is energized. The power for the exciter comes from the lighting relay (according to the 8V drawing and what you found in the harness).

If all the wiring checks out that only leaves the VR or the alternator itself. You will have to pull it and get it tested.
 
Looked at the options for the VR's gain and noticed this test for the VR. It will output 16V if shorted so either the VR is toast from the previous shorts, or there is an internal short in the alternator. The test is the same for the variable voltage one or the fixed. Still possible if you got the variable one that the setting is too high but i would expect it to just put out high voltage all the time, not on and off.

I am not sure how to test the VR off the alternator. Perhaps someone else here has done that. Or send Euro an email and ask them. Either way, pulling the alternator and bringing it to a shop will be your best option.

Upload 2017 7 5 9 46 49
 
Hi Canuck and John.

Thanks guys. What a great help you've been so far.

Yes, the lights work fine. So the exciter is getting power.

Alternator removal is next.

Cheers!
 
Hey everyone!
So, I took the alternator to a respectable Automotive Electrical Service place. The alternator was subjected to numerous tests and start stop situations attempting to replicate the various states experienced on the bike. There was nothing revealed and the tests show nothing wrong with the alternator.

I have reinstalled the alternator, verified the belt tension is adequate and am ready to restart the bike. Does it make sense that the low beam relay may have some sort of intermittent issue? Although the lights worked on all starts possibly it has some switching issue? I won't be able to get back at it again until next weekend so I will look forward to your insights! Thanks again everyone and have a great weekend.
 
Wow. Was not expecting that. Let's for now assume they are right.

The difficulty now with the wiring is it is a cross between the 2008 diagram and the 8v diagram so a little hard to diagnose from this end.

I will need to take a look again and see if I can make some sense of it but I do have some questions.

When u said before the black wires go back to the low beam relay do u mean the high beam relay or the lighting logic relay. Yes the relay can cause this on/off issue but that should also affect the lights. Unless there is another brake in the line somewhere. Does not really explain the 15 v situation but need to look at that again. Someone else said they got a 15+v reading before with an alternator wiring issue but I just discounted that as a bad reading. I am now second guessing that.

Do u have continuity from the plug at the alternator for the two black wires back to where it goes into the relay. Check both black wires. Wiggle the wires. You want to check that the splice where these two wires join the headlight black wires is secure.

Do your high beams work when the bike is running.

Do your headlights turn on when you just turn the key on.

Is there power to ground from the two black wires at the alternator with just the key on.

One thing you can try to rule out the relay is swap the high beam relay and the lighting relay. They should both be 5 pin relays but with the discrepancy with the drawings can't gaurentee that.

If none of this results in anything I am not sure what to tell you. There is nothing else that controls the voltage other than the VR. Let's hope something shows up.
 
I found a diagram that somewhat describes what you are finding. Is this one any closer (except for the wire colour for the black wires at the alternator)? This one does not show a Highbeam relay. Looks like the power for the HB is routed right through the switch. Is that what you have on your bike. Just one light relay?
 

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Ok. Been thinking about this further and did some research. Double check both of those black wires at the alternator and make sure they are secure right back to their power source. One wire is the exciter voltage that as I said before excites the magnetic to produce power. The other wire is the voltage sensing wire for the regulator. It senses the bike voltage and adjusts the regulator to produce more or less voltage. I wonder if this wire is loose or disconnects. I suspect they both go back to the same spot to get power. Check that spot and make sure it is secure and clean. Also check the plug at the alternator for these wires and make sure it is good. Check the resistance/continuity for each one back to that power source (assuming g it is the relay??). Verify that and make sure it is all good.
 
Hi Canuck! Thanks for your diligence in helping me work through this issue and thanks for the wiring diagram. For some reason I am unable to attach an image of the wiring diagram I'm using which identifies the low beam relay. I will get an upload when I get home later today.

I followed your insights and rechecked the continuity of the wires to the relay, checked the connections and such.
I'm unable to start the bike right now as I'm converting the fuel lines to banjo and stainless which is going to be ultra cool! I'll upload images after its complete.
 
WindwardWarrior said:
Hi Canuck! Thanks for your diligence in helping me work through this issue and thanks for the wiring diagram. For some reason I am unable to attach an image of the wiring diagram I'm using which identifies the low beam relay. I will get an upload when I get home later today.

I followed your insights and rechecked the continuity of the wires to the relay, checked the connections and such.
I'm unable to start the bike right now as I'm converting the fuel lines to banjo and stainless which is going to be ultra cool! I'll upload images after its complete.
Click to expand...
WindwardWarrior said:
Hi Canuck! Thanks for your diligence in helping me work through this issue and thanks for the wiring diagram. For some reason I am unable to attach an image of the wiring diagram I'm using which identifies the low beam relay. I will get an upload when I get home later today.

I followed your insights and rechecked the continuity of the wires to the relay, checked the connections and such.
I'm unable to start the bike right now as I'm converting the fuel lines to banjo and stainless which is going to be ultra cool! I'll upload images after its complete.
Click to expand...
 
So, my image is tool large to share? Strange. Nothing different from any other image?
The wiring diagram I have is a September 2008 version and shows Relay # as Low Beam Relay which is what I called it in my earlier post.

Cheers
 
That is fine but where do the two black wires from the alternator go on the bike. do they both go to the relay for sure. Does it match your drawing.

If all the wiring is good and the alternator and VR is good does not leave a lot of possibilities. You need to make sure all the connections are sound. If the sensing wire from the alternator is not working properly you will get the issues you describe of low to high voltage.

I would jump the two wires together at the plug to the alternator and try it again. If that works you have an issue in that side of the wiring. Both these wires should theoretically go to a 12v source. Hopefully one of them has constant power. If they are both loose at their power source you will get the same issue.

You need to double check all your wiring. Only logical posility left.
 
Thanks Canuck. Yes both wires lead to the relay. I retested their connectivity, resistance and tightness yesterday. I will jump them when I fire up the bike on the weekend!

Cheers
 
Hi everyone! It's been awhile since I updated the status of the Norge and it's charging issues. I've been busy with work and spending time with my grandson; both worthwhile adventures!

So, while the bike has been down, I decided to replace the fuel line with a stainless steel alternative. The bike is running now with one minor modification needed to the fuel line! I'll post some images later.

Charging system after alternator check and reinstallation showed same issues of over, under and normal charge when started.

Jumped wires to relay: same result, variable charging rates.....

Replaced low beam relay, charging normally. Now, the installation of the fairing, connection of lights and further testing as it goes back together. I've got my fingers crossed.

Cheers
 
Hey everyone! Well, I finally got a chance to spend some time on the bike over the weekend! So, I put everything back together, testing as best I could as I progressed, particularly with the headlights etc. I buttoned it all back up, test rode it and the ABS Lamp wouldn't go off after attaining low speed. I cruised on the highway at about 100 KPH with the dash Ammeter showing a pretty steady 13.1-13.4 V. Feeling pretty good about that so far other than the ABS warning lamp illumination.

After stopping, I checked with the Voltmeter (I had packed it) and saw 13.6V at 2500 RPM! Feeling pretty good, with the exception of the ABS Lamp. Oh well, back home and some more testing...So, on the ride back I was a little more exuberant and saw the overcharge on the dash Ammeter. I got home, pulled the seat and the 40 Amp Fuse I had repaired/replaced the wires on was blown. More scraping, cleaning and pulling repaired wires out to inspect. Everything seemed OK?

I replaced the fuse and started the bike. Strange that the Neutral lamp is flickering? It also has a sensation of a miss (wants to stall) that is synchronous with the flickering of the Neutral lamp? As I rev it up, the dash Ammeter spikes to 17V, the dash back lights go off and the Neutral Lamp and ABS warning lamp go off? Pull seat, fuse blown again.

So, I am back to square one. I will need to test some of the wires again as Canuck has stated earlier and if that proves futile, I guess a new alternator is in order. I am thinking of ordering one anyways!

Thoughts?
 
Well, the only thing that can blow that 40 amp fuse is the alternator since I don't see any other connections from that red/green wire on the diagram. That wire either has a break in it somewhere, or the alternator is blowing it. I would start with that wire. Since it was previously cooked, may be another brittle section somewhere on it way to the alternator.

Failing that, I think you have exhausted all other possibilities. 17V is very concerning. At that voltage, things start to fry. I don't think you have any other choice than to try an OEM alternator with the OEM regulator.

What is the exact number for the regulator you bought. Are you sure it is big enough to handle the load?? Pretty sure the stock alternator is 540W which is pretty big when it comes to bikes. What is the replacement alternator...do you know?
 
Hi Canuck! Thanks for you reply. So, here is a link to the Euro Moto Electrics page with the rectifier. It seems that it is too small at 40 Amps (40A x 12V = 480W)'

euromotoelectrics.com/category-s/1663.htm

I am unsure of the part number for the alternator, but yes I do know it is a 540 W, so the solution I found wasn't a real good one!

Cheers
 
Which VR on that page did you get?? The integrated plug in ones seem to be good up to 65 amps. Unless that replacement alternator is larger than the original?

I still find it odd that they tested the alternator and VR to be good. What kind of load did they apply to it and what was the output? Did you actually get a report?

Only two possible problems with the wiring, either the red green to the battery is buggered, or the two black wires from the VR are buggered. If they all look good from start to finish and are secure, then I guess it only leaves the VR or alternator (and that is honestly a guess at this point).

Do you still have the original VR that came with that replacement alternator. I suspect that the original issues were those wires you fixed and the original VR was still good. May be worth putting it back in and try if you still have it.

Hate for you to go and buy a new alternator and VR only to still have a problem but as long as the wires are good, there is not much else. That is what I would do.
 
Hi Canuck! So, we've traded a number of thoughts on this charging system issue. What is your name? I'm Mark,

Yes, I wonder about the validity of their test? There is another shop near me that I will take the alternator to next week. I didn't receive anything from the shop other than their word of the testing they performed?

I don't have the old rectifier any longer. I had the original alternator tested and it was junk, so I tossed both the original alternator and the second alternator rectifier :(

This is the unit I chose from EME:

Denso Voltage Regulator - Denso Alternator on Moto Guzzi Breva 1100, Griso 1100 2005-2009

Anyways, back at it this weekend when I get home. Traveling for work this week (every week).

Cheers
 
WindwardWarrior said:
Hi Canuck! So, we've traded a number of thoughts on this charging system issue. What is your name? I'm Mark,

Yes, I wonder about the validity of their test? There is another shop near me that I will take the alternator to next week. I didn't receive anything from the shop other than their word of the testing they performed?

I don't have the old rectifier any longer. I had the original alternator tested and it was junk, so I tossed both the original alternator and the second alternator rectifier :(

This is the unit I chose from EME:

Denso Voltage Regulator - Denso Alternator on Moto Guzzi Breva 1100, Griso 1100 2005-2009

Anyways, back at it this weekend when I get home. Traveling for work this week (every week).

Cheers
Click to expand...

That regulator looks good...assuming the aftermarket alternator is wired the same way as the original Denso. I can't tell whats what from the website but as long as the terminals for the sensing side (black wires) and the lugs on the alternator are the same it should be good. Rated for 40amps so plenty of power. Only thing you don't know now is did the shorts you found fry that regulator.

Do you have the brand of the new alternator. May be able to get that information. It bolted right up so you would assume it is correct. It should be the same if it is a direct replacement but you never know if it had a different regulator on it.

I would keep looking for bad wiring to rule that completely out but I think you will be looking at another alternator or regulator.

Joe
 
Hey Joe!
Thanks. So, today the bike shops out West reopened. Most are closed on Monday
My go to guy has the Chinese Chengdu alternator available for$200 tax in! The Denso unit is $US900. A rebuilt one from EME is $US450 plus shipping, duties and whatever. It's a no brainer.

I'll do some more testing/inspection, change the alternator and see what goes on after that! Thanks for sticking with me through this!
Cheers
 
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