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Daytona / Centauro Part 92602316 - is it incorrectly described.

Discussion in 'Spine' started by redrockmania, Feb 24, 2018.

  1. redrockmania

    redrockmania Just got it firing!

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    I am preparing to replace camshaft belts and replace the timing gears and oil pump on my 1997 Daytona RS. The nut holding the lower front belt pulley on is Part #: 92602316 and is described as having a M6 x 1.5 thread. This seems wrong. The washer behind the nut is Part #: 95004217 and is size 17 x 27 x 2. Because the inside diameter of the washer is 17mm, it seems probable that the nut (92602316) has a thread that is M16 x 1.5. The nut part number ends in 16 which further tends to confirm this. Is anyone able to advise if the nut has a M16 x 1.5 thread and that the M6 x 1.5 specification is wrong. Thanks.
     
  2. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT Famiglia

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    Mis-prints and errors in Guzzi manuals are not uncommon. I hope you have the Guzzi tools for setting up the timing. Setting the cam timing on these bikes is not easy even with the tools. I'm of the opinion that without them it is impossible.
     
  3. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    That sounds like a very plausible mistake. As it is a 10mm difference between the two it should be clearly obvious.
    I replaced the belts on mine a while back. I think the most important tool was patience. I did have the "special tool" but I am not sure it works that well. I also paid very close attention to how tight the belts were before I started.
     
  4. redrockmania

    redrockmania Just got it firing!

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    For setting the timing I have a degree wheel but not the steel tube with flange it attaches to then slips onto the crankshaft. Does anyone have the diameter of the crankshaft where the degree wheel fits onto it as well as the length of the tube that fits over it? My plan is to machine the inside of a tube for a neat fit, fit a flange with 4 holes drilled to attach the degree wheel to it and thus replicate the factory tool. The Daytona/Centauro Part # for the steel tube with flange is #: 30949600. Ideally I need the inside diameter and length of the tube with flange. Thanks all.
     
  5. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    I did not use a degree wheel. I used the marks on the cam sprockets. The special tool I used was to do with setting belt tension.
     
  6. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT Famiglia

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    The last Daytona I worked on had no marks on the cam sprockets. It was degree wheel and dial indicator to get the cams correctly timed. Someone else had removed the belts and hadn't marked anything prior to removal. It was a real PITA to get everything set up again.
     
  7. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Well, that would suck. Mine is an early Daytona, vintage '93. I don't know if that had anything to do with it being marked. Clearly, don't take one apart without confirming it has marks, and if it does not have marks, mark it.
     
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  8. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque High Miler GT Famiglia

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    I tracked down and purchased all of the 4V specific factory tools from around the world except the degree wheel kit. However, I just found that kit recently in Germany, and it is now on its way to me too. I also purchased Joe Caruso's steel gear set and oil pump so I too am planning on pulling my 1997 centauro motor this season and replacing the parts. Anybody who wants pictures or measurements of the tools can PM me and I will be happy to share that information with you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  9. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT Famiglia

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    Glad you found them. I was just able to get the degree wheel, but not the holder so I had to fudge that and make my own pointer for the wheel. It worked, but wasn't pretty.
     
  10. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque High Miler GT Famiglia

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    FWIW
     

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  11. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque High Miler GT Famiglia

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    I understand completely John! I knew this was a bugger of a job and there was no way I was going to do it without proper tools.

    FWIW. The degree wheel kit is available from Stein-Dinse in Germany for 50 Euros. (Love these guys for stuff like this).

    Search for Product No. 19929601

    19929601.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  12. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT Famiglia

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    Thanks for the information Scott. My current plan is to never touch a 4 valve Guzzi again. However if I do good to know it is available. I couldn't get degree wheel kit from a US dealer, just the wheel.
     
  13. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Sometimes I read things like this and I marvel: Through the nineteen-teens, 1920s, and into the 1930s, there were never such things as service manuals and marks on the parts. A mechanic had to understand first principles of engine design, know how to figure appropriate torques for bolts and nuts based on sizing and materials, understand valve timing and how to set it, same for clearances, etc etc.

    I think the first service manuals for any kind of engine started to appear in the middle 1930s and half of the contents on them were instructional sections on these basic principles. Factory marking of parts seems to have surfaced in the 1950s on production engines, after the experiences of the second world war in marking parts for fast, in-the-field repair and maintenance by 'untrained' personnel.

    Sorry for the digression, and for sure no disparagement meant to anyone. What was occurring to me is that no motorcycle engine is really all so complicated that you can't figure it out and get a job done if you just sit back and think about it first, utilizing knowledge of first principles and common sense (like marking things as they come apart) just as the old time mechanics of a century ago did. It may not be convenient or quick, but it's all doable. :D

    G
     
  14. redrockmania

    redrockmania Just got it firing!

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    I weakened, found and purchased Part #: 30949600 "Setting Dial Hub" which you can see in the above photo from the Stein-Dinse catalogue. If buying the tool, make sure you order the correct setting dial hub tool. In the parts manual there are 2 listed on the 2 pages of factory tools - 30949600 is for Daytona & Centauro - 65928400 is for the Sport 1100i only.
    If you want to make your own hub tool the Inside Diameter (ID) of the tube that slips onto the shaft is 18mm. The key way is 4mm wide x 2mm deep. You could get away without having a key way by drilling a hole and tapping in a 4mm thread and fitting a screw to tighten onto the keyway on the shaft. The length of the tube is 44mm before the base of the flange. The outside diameter (OD) of the flange is 62mm. The flange at its thickest part is 6mm and the outer upper part of the flange is 4mm thick. The 4 threaded holes in the flange are M5 threads they are at diameter of 50mm. using the photo above and my description, you should be able to replicate the hub tool. Hope this helps. Off now to make my own arrow indicator as per the photo above, then I have the complete set up.
     
  15. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque High Miler GT Famiglia

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    So you are confusing here. Are you trying to state that the kit I listed above is incorrect? Steine-Dinse has confirmed that the kit I listed, is indeed the V10 Centauro kit. I will receive the part tomorrrow.

    Also, did you see the photo I posted of your nut you were asking about? I hope that helped you.

    Scott
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  16. redrockmania

    redrockmania Just got it firing!

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    Hi Scott. Firstly The SD Degree Wheel Kit from their catalogue (Your photo attached above) is correct for the Daytona & Centauro. I have a hard copy factory parts manual for the Daytona that has some differences to the current (later) online factory parts manual. In my earlier edition, MG in their wisdom saw fit to list and draw the Sport 1100i hub mounting tool as well as the hub mounting tool for the Daytona/Centauro. The current online parts manual has deleted several tools that were specific to the 1100i including the 1100i hub mounting tool - thus removing the confusion. If you choose to using your own generic degree wheel and make your own arrow indicator to put together a full Degree Wheel Kit, then hub mounting tool you need is part #: 30949600.
    Thank you for attaching the photo and description of the nut listed by Gutsibits for a 14 x 1.5 thread nut (Part #: 92602316). This confirms my suspicion the parts manual was in error stating that the thread was 6 x 1.5. I now will have the correct nut on hand when I do cam belts and a conversion to chain drive timing. It seems like a small thing, but there is nothing more annoying when undertaking major work to find you have the wrong part, and/or there is difficulty in locating the correct part. Thanks!
     
  17. scottmastrocinque

    scottmastrocinque High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Hi Redrock,

    No worries. You're welcome! I received the entire degree wheel, hub, and arrow indicator from Stein-Dinse yesterday, and it looks perfect. Well worth the 50 Euros to me.

    I now have tools 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 and the degree wheel and pointing arrow indicator for it. Never seen a 4 anywhere nor know how it is supposed to be used, don't need a 9 or 10 as that is just a spark plug wrench, and have tried to find 1, but I believe that once again, it's just a socket wrench to turn the retaining nut on the camshaft of which a regular socket would do fine. The only other tool called for in the manual which is not listed here is a machinists dial indicator which fits into the knurled end of 6, and is held in place with the retaining screw on the side. The pin actually fits in the opposite way and touches the piston crown on the threaded end, and the dial indicator stem on the other end. It's thicker on one side to prevent it dropping into the combustion chamber when the piston goes on the downstroke.

    Again, if anybody needs photos or measurements of these tools, just PM me and I'll be happy to get them to you.

    I will be creating a detailed HOW TO on this timing gears and oil pump replacement for the Centauro. When it is done, I will give it to Todd to put here on the site. Should be starting this project late spring early summer when the weather is nice for the garage door to be open all day.

    Scott
    Centauro Tools.png Centauro Tools Part #s.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
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  18. redrockmania

    redrockmania Just got it firing!

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    Thanks again Scott - Your purchase of the SD timing kit was the smart way to go. I already had purchased a metal degree wheel so decided to buy the hub and make the arrow indicator - a slower process, but I enjoy tinkering. I have Tool 4 in the drawing Part # 30948600 ("Distribution Belt Tensor [cambelt tensioner). It is in NZ, but I should get over there towards the end of 2018 and can make a pattern drawing of it. I purchased some time ago on eBay a reasonably priced "universal" belt tensioner that should suit - will know after my NZ visit to my Italian mistress.
    On another note I'm in the process of creating charts with all Daytona/Centauro bearings, seals and o rings with MG part Numbers, descriptions, size specifications and original and alternative manufacturers. I will post this once completed. Have completed the bearings - currently immersed in o rings and seals.
     

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