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8V Failure info.

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One thing that is interesting and may come as a surprise to many is that all the talk about 'Different cams' in the Stelvios and all the other 8V motors with the exception perhaps of the Norge 8V appears to be bullshit.

Same part numbers, same opening and closing figures. I can't see lift figures being different in those circumstances and the part numbers rule it out anyway.

Haven't trawled through the 1200 Sport 4V details but I will when I have time. Given that this is the case one has to look for other reasons for the ID changes of the various different motors.

Pete
 
Wow!

Now the new bikes don't need to worry about ZDDP fortified oil anymore.

Do you guys think the greater reciprocating mass of this design will trade a few horses comparing to the old flat tappet/push rod combo?

Phang

rollerbearing.jpg
 
This roller difference is a significant change.
Only the "tappets" are changed? Can this be retrofitted to older bikes?
I wonder if they will post any recall - fat chance I suppose.
 
The entire cambox (including the camshaft) is a new design.

I noticed the valve springs have new part number. Most likely a stronger one to keep the valves from floating at high rpm.

Phang
 
I would be very interested to know if the Early 8V motors and I include my 2011 Griso can be retrofitted to the new cam boxes and at what cost.
 
If a retrofit kit is available for the earlier engines I would imagine that the mapping on the ECU would have to change also to adapt to the new cam profile/roller response.
Anyone agree?
 
Was Re: 8V Failure info., now Roller tappets

That we won't know until someone can plug into an ECU and have a squuizz at the map designation.

I was surprised it didn't garner more interest here, it certainly got suspenders twanging and corn-cob-piped bitten over on WG!

Thing is that nobody really knows for sure. I'm sure that noise is a big part of it. The 2011/12 Stelvio I saw at the importer which at the time I didn't realize was one of the 'New' roller tappet models was significantly quieter than ANY flat tappet model I've heard and the ones with cams shimmed for end float are a significant improvement over ones like mine which really sound awe-inspiringly nasty, people are forever asking me what's wrong with it! :lol:

If I had known I would of used a mirror to have a squizz at the slots in the camboxes to see if I could get a gurn at the tappets, as it is I'll have to wait until it comes back from being flogged around Tassie by some cock-head journalist. Chances are they'll trash it. The importer has yet to have a Stelvio returned by the Oz 'Press' in one piece :roll:

In case I haven't posted 'em here before here at least are a couple lf pics of the changes go the cambox and plug tube sealing system..

6011546014_4a2909583d_z.jpg


6010989785_8ede89ee05_z.jpg


Pete
 
:D Done a little reading, yeps I know I never should have!
Wondering if some of the failures could been aided by oils with very low ZDDP content? I understand that flat tappet engines like to see a ppm of 1200 min.
Would be nice to get a chart showing the ZDDP content of oils used.
Anybody know what the ZDDP content of the Guzzi recommended engine oil is?
I am currently using Silkolene Pro 4 4T and have mailed Fuchs to get the ZDDP content.
B)
 
"I was surprised it didn't garner more interest here, it certainly got suspenders twanging and corn-cob-piped bitten over on WG!"

Pete,

The likely reason for that is people over here are probably a little more circumspect and are more likely to wait until there is some fact to get excited about rather than the current hopefull discussions.
I'm sure once you or one of the other Tech guys is able to give cofirmation that this is a possible upgrade for the older engines then there is likely to be a flurry of activity.
No point getting excited before you have reason to.
I would be one who might be interested but that would be dependant on the cost which might be scary.
If the end result is that the major benefit is only a lower noise level (pure specualtion) then you would have to weigh up the costs.
I can live with the noisy valvetrain as from your and my experience it is not going to cause any other grief. Let's face it I can't hear it when I'm riding, except at idle and it is something that I kind of have an affinity with as it stamps my bike in the crowd of sewing machines.

Mark
 
Mark111 said:
"I was surprised it didn't garner more interest here, it certainly got suspenders twanging and corn-cob-piped bitten over on WG!"

Pete,

The likely reason for that is people over here are probably a little more circumspect and are more likely to wait until there is some fact to get excited about rather than the current hopefull discussions.
I'm sure once you or one of the other Tech guys is able to give cofirmation that this is a possible upgrade for the older engines then there is likely to be a flurry of activity.
No point getting excited before you have reason to.
I would be one who might be interested but that would be dependant on the cost which might be scary.
If the end result is that the major benefit is only a lower noise level (pure specualtion) then you would have to weigh up the costs.
I can live with the noisy valvetrain as from your and my experience it is not going to cause any other grief. Let's face it I can't hear it when I'm riding, except at idle and it is something that I kind of have an affinity with as it stamps my bike in the crowd of sewing machines.

Mark
Click to expand...

That about sums it up for me Mark as well.

Pete has post an excellent chronology on his experience with the 8V motor or Donk :mrgreen: on WG, guaranteed there will be some codgers there that will disagree and continue using their precious Castrol 20W50. :p
 
pnguzzi said:
:D Done a little reading, yeps I know I never should have!
Would be nice to get a chart showing the ZDDP content of oils used.
Click to expand...

I did some reading also :lol:
According to wiki with reference from WG that originated from Guzzitech and is ending up here...... :huh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil#American_Petroleum_Institute
If the oil is rated API SG ..... quote "in API SG rated oils, this was at the 1200-1300 ppm level for zincs and phosphorus"
This is if the manufacturer follows the standards.
 
There's no point focusing just on ZDDP, it's only one of a number of anti-wear agents used in oil for which the chemistry is very complex. The standards for scuff and wear resistance increase with each specification (i.e. SL, SM, SJ. SG is a VERY old spec) so the horizon needs to be broader than just a single additive.
 
I did some squinting at the parts manual posted by DanPez and found a few peculiar things :lol:

The spark plug tunnels are still utilizing the older “tube with o-rings at both ends” design. (Page 68)

The hydraulic camchain tensioner of the LHS cylinder seems pressing on the wrong side of the chain. (Page 71)
LHStensioner.jpg


Phang
 
Series4 said:
There's no point focusing just on ZDDP, it's only one of a number of anti-wear agents used in oil for which the chemistry is very complex. The standards for scuff and wear resistance increase with each specification (i.e. SL, SM, SJ. SG is a VERY old spec) so the horizon needs to be broader than just a single additive.
Click to expand...

I'm not a Tribologist but rhis is my feeling too. I'm sure that while ZDDP is a useful additive it can't be the only one capable of protecting flat tappets. This is another reason why I tend to think heat is a far more critical factor than many are giving it credit for. The galleries around the exhaust valve seats are going to be running hot enough to tax any oil!

Pete
 
It can't be "just" the oil either, as the 2010 NTX had been living on Agip 10W60 all it's life, and still had a failure. Never been ridden in very hot climbs either.
Equally there are a lot of these engines which have not failed, and I'll bet not all have been fed on the correct oil.
 
No, I'm not saying it is entirely oil related. Brian, I really can't say what is going wrong. I wish I could! Really!!! What I can do, which will hopefully be helpfull, is say what I do and don't do. None of thr 8V'sI've serviced from new have had a failure, YET!!!! I'm not an oracle. It may well be that my workshop has been particularly adept at dodging bullets! But what are the chances?

All I'm trying to do is try and give out the information and experience I have. It may all be completely wrong, ill informed and barking up the wrong tree. The odds are against it though.

Pete
 
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