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8V Failure info.

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8 valve eagle said:
Hi Folks
Its my first post so not quite sure of protocol .I have been looking in at this topic for a while. I was very concerned when I saw Pete Ropers comments regarding his conversation with Haywards of cambridge as when the cam failed on my 2010 NTX A8 Series motor in August 2011 it was Haywards who did the warranty work. Pete states'' that on every engine that the cams go tits up the oil pump needed replacement '' I am sorry but pete has been miss informed. I emailed Ed the workshop manage at Haywards yesterday his reply to my email was this
''Hi keith
Every cam job we have carried out the oil pump has been striped and checked.
If deemed necessary then the pump has been replaced, as your cams had worn a small amount compared to most this protocol was followed and the pump was checked and was deemed in fine working order.
Each bike has a pressure test carried out on it after the cams have been replaced and it is quite obvious if the pump is working correctly and efficently.
We would not release your bike if we were not 100% happy with the complete engine performance and all components.''
Obviously some cams have failed due to faulty oil pumps but not in all cases .I noticed my engine started to run rough within a few hundred miles of it being serviced and got Haywards to collect it where they found the cams starting to fail
Regards keith
Click to expand...

Yes. I obviously mis-understood. No, Haywards are one of if not the most reputable dealers in the UK. Why would they return your bike if they weren't happy with it? Thing is they DID inspect the pum and on our case found it OK.

If you want people to share information so we can try and get to the bottom of this I can think of no better way to piss people off and get them to clam up than running shrieking to them based on a well meaning but incorrect statement from anotherwell meaning mechanic on an internet board. Jesus! Thanks Mate!!!!

Pete
 
Out of curiosity Pete, are you still persisting that there is no design issue with the 8V engine (in any case it becomes more and more moot with all the changes being applied ...)

Good thing to have Sergio aboard here!

With what I read here (diagonally) and on one of the French forums, I'm certainly not getting any less inclined to hold on to my 2V Norge!
 
Any link to the French Forums?
I like to know as well and I can understand the locals :laugh:
 
Oh cool. Thanks a bunch.
Yeah I saw you posts in the first link on that thread.
Tu es Francais, ou juste immigre? Moi a Orlando depuis 20 ans (ne en Ardeche).
Anyway, I like the expression about the rockers...
Approximate translation: "Rockers are like little kids, when they're quiet, they're up to no good" :lol: :lol: :lol:

I will follow that Forum from now on...
Seems they have their own Mr. Ropper as well. :D

Thanks again.
 
Yeah, 'Doc Mandello' is a bit of a Mr. Roper, and there's another member who's a mechanics teacher/professor in some sort of college.

I'm Dutch actually, in France for about 15y now...
 
Yeah, cool bunch it seems...
And they run the Ester Motul oil like I do, in their bikes.
They have to be OK. :D
 
Mi_ka said:
Does anybody in the French forums have any good theory of what might be the reason?
Click to expand...
Everybody is on his own chair... You see what I mean ?

As always people are speaking, writing, calling "help everybody I'm alone on this planet" and when you ask for some details... the silence is wonderfull.

Others think at a lubrication default due to the oil pump and/or the quality of the oil.

When MotoGuzzi France take the parts on warranty they had the new oil pump... But is it really a new pump ? UK dealer say "no" (earlier post here).
Only thing I know : the ref of this pump has been different between the Norge and other 8V until 11/2011 (seeing the parts list). The latest parts list of the Stelvio (02/2012) show now this new reference.

About quality of oil the Zinc % included in the modern oils seems to be important too. Some riders will add Cam-Shield ZZDP additive in motor oil.
Other additive evoked : Mecacyl, Mecarun

And always 10W60.

That's all folks

Sergio @ still waiting his Stelvio since october 2011
 
Hi Folks
I have just received the april/ may edition of Gambalunga the MGCGB magazine and in it are the results of a survey the MGCGB carried out after receiving complaints about poor reliability on the 8 valve motors from members and the subsequent letter to Piaggio /Moto Guzzi UK and Italy and the reply from Piaggio 's UK General Manager Tony Campbell.
I will not reproduce the complete letter here but under the heading Premature Camshaft Wear/Failure they state
''We are fully aware of the the issues regarding the premature cam shaft wear rates and for this reason the company has been working very hard to source alternative materials in order to fully address this problem. As a result of this hard work Piaggio Group are satisfied that the components being supplied under warranty are of satisfactory quality and as a result will deliver mileage/use nornally associated with this type of component. As a result Piaggio have agreed to extend warrantys for customers that have suffered premature failure to camshafts''.

Just nice to know that we have it in writing from Piaggio that there is / has been a materials problem with the camshafts/ followers and that the problem is in manufacture not servicing ,oil pumps or oils used, though that is not to say that the addition of friction reducers my not help alleviate a manfacturing issue.

Regards Keith
 
Maybe they should ask Yamaha about the materials they use in the WRF engine heads? I have not heard of premature wear of camshafts and tappets on these engines even though they rev much higher (ok liquid cooled so no overheated oil).
Maybe it is a combination of factors, cam lobes/valve spring rates/extra hot oil/usual climate of use and the factory is just now slowly reacting now that the problem is making it self more clear - just not in Oz though! Doh!
 
Mi_ka said:
I have not heard of premature wear of camshafts and tappets on these engines even though they rev much higher (ok liquid cooled so no overheated oil).
Click to expand...

I don't want this to become an oil thread ...... but
I recently installed an oil temperature gauge on my 2009 Stelvio.
Bought the gauge from MG Cycle .... one that goes in place of the dipstick (oil pan temperature)
Went for a ride this week. Temperature outside was 8ºc, drove the bike for about an hour (city/highway), the temperature of the gauge reached 110ºc.
Oils been in the bike about 1000km ..... nice goldish color still!

Last year in traffic https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/160/6726.html after that day the bike sounded different. (noisier)
Took it within myself to change the oil .... no matter the milage it had. (Was really black in color)
A lot of differerent factors for 8V failures ..... IMO oil temp is one of them.
 
Maybe it is a factor in the hmmm scratchhead we face here equation but definitely 110c is no where near 130+ that can be considered high oil temp.
On my not-direct-valve-drive NX650 I have been riding with semisynthetic oil in the 130-145C region (dipstick thermometer) with no oil related troubles.
In fact, I think 110C is pretty much OK for an air-oil cooled power plant - I remember looking over the shoulder of the driver at his dashboard of such temps at the air cooled V8 diesel busses that where once run by the public bus company of Athens, Greece.

**edit**
The aforementioned busses were powered by air cooled Magirus-Deutz engines and were pretty reliable even in the hot Greek Summer.
Did a little googling and found from http://www.magirusdeutz.co.uk/MD8deutz.htm that "The maximum permissible oil temperature in a Deutz engine is 125 deg C. The maximum temperature of the cylinder fins is about 170 deg C."
Yes I know, different kind of beast but heavy duty, nevertheless.
 
DanPez said:
Mi_ka said:
Last year in traffic https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/160/6726.html after that day the bike sounded different. (noisier)
Took it within myself to change the oil .... no matter the milage it had. (Was really black in color)
A lot of differerent factors for 8V failures ..... IMO oil temp is one of them.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Hi Dan,
I'm only a spectator when it comes to the 8V, but I think you might be onto something with the overheating oil.
I reckon a radiator fan might be in order. I have a little Sym scooter with a radiator fan and the heat that it radiates is significant. With a bit of looking around, there might even be a fan that bolts straight on.

Regards,Mark.
 
Good idea actually.
The recent Tuonos (with the Rotax plant) uses two small fans for their radiator...
I'm sure one would fit nicely on the Griso if indeed, it would provide enough cooling when idling in hot weather.
 
pete roper said:
But it still doesn't explain why it is that failures are occuring in some markets with a much greater frequency than others. ????????

Pete
Click to expand...
...Is it a miscalculation as regarding the Rockwell hardness number required, or, is it a manufacturing deficiency somehow, in the actual construction ? 90 years of experience in valve actuation on air-cooled engines, quite successfully, and yet something is wrong. Riding since 1967, and this Stelvio is my most favorite of all...(and most expensive). Thank God for warranty...
 
Surely if it was an oil temperature thing, then you would not expect so many failures in not so sunny Britain, and more in everso hot Aus.

But clearly Guzzi/Piaggio still have no idea why this is happening, and I'm sure they have put a few brains onto the problem.
So what is the point in us guessing?
 
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