Advice needed!

[ericf]

Hi

Took the G11 out yesterday for first ride in ages longer than 20 mins. I have not been able to put may miles on the bike cos I only bought it in November and it has been garaged for most of winter.

It has a termi slip on can and has, I am told, been remapped to suit. I do not have the baffle in but have it in the garage.

Yesterday I found the bike to be almost impossible to ride at slow speed in restricted areas (30mph zones etc). it was lurching really badly and around roundabouts I was having to slip the clutch all the time just to make it smooth (safe!). Any advice? If this is not sortable it is going to be very short lived relationship with Guzzi!

Cheers. E

 

[Gordon]

Put the baffle, or DB Killer, back in.
I took one out of the SE and it popped and banged like crazy - as well as pissing off the missus with the appalling noise.
Cheers
Gordon

 

[cyclobutch]

Mines awful. It did the same on the std pipe and is exactly the same on an open Termi. It banged and popped on the original pipe and it does now - it's just louder. My pals, still running the std can is just the same.

 

[Spaceclam]

if it wasn't doing it before, and now it is, something's changed.

How old is the gas? Has it gotten really cold since the last time you ran it? Are there any leaks in the exhaust?

What do you mean by "remapped to suit"? How was this accomplished?

-Clam

 

[GuzziMoto]

if it wasn't doing it before, and now it is, something's changed.

How old is the gas? Has it gotten really cold since the last time you ran it? Are there any leaks in the exhaust?

What do you mean by "remapped to suit"? How was this accomplished?

-Clam

What he said, plus what rpms and gear are you having the lurching at?
Did it do this before or is this a new development?

It is certainly fixable if it is not right, but more info on what is wrong may help.

 

[ericf]

To answer the queries: -

Termi was fitted by dealer who told me that it it had been remapped on installation.

Bike sat in the garage on a trickle charger for a while over winter. I fired it up every now and then but it had a period when not ridden. It was always "lurchy" or snatchy. Not a particular revs or in a particular gear but generally when trying to hold a constant throttle or backing off at low revs. When going for it it is not a problem. Lots of popping on decel but I have had this on bikes with slip ons before but it has never caused such problems. I certainly do not want to have to start buying power commanders etc. I have only done about 350 miles on it so limited knowledge.

The baffle has never been in since I have owned the bike (in fact I had to go back to the dealer to ask him for it).

Any ideas or is it back to the dealer? I will fit the baffle first to see whether that makes a diff. It is a shame becasue it is already tainting my thoughts on the bike.

Cheers

E

 

[Captain Oversteer]

I'm not a wizard on these bikes but I had a similar problem. In the lower gears my B11 would lurch horribly. My throttle cables were way too loose and I had huge difficulty "feathering" the bike between acceleration and deceleration. So much so that I found myself pulling the clutch and coasting until I needed more throttle.

This may not be your problem but, it's easy enough to check and, most importantly, it's quick and doesn't cost any money. I likes no money fixes....

 

[GuzziMoto]

Taking all the extra slack out of the throttle cable is a good idea. Putting the restrictor in the muffler is also a good idea. New motorcycles are notoriously lean at slower speeds and throttle openings and an unrestricted exhaust will only make it worse without a way of adding more fuel at those ranges. However the ecu is listening to the O2 sensor in that range so there is little you can do to adjust the fueling there without a way to over ride the O2 sensor.
Old gas left over from last fall won't help matters either. Still wondering what kind of rpm range you are experiencing these issues at.
Guzzi's take a while to break in and they can be tricky to set up as far as balancing the throttle bodies. I would start by putting the restrictor back in and taking the slack out of the throttle cables, put some fresh gas in the tank, ride it a while to see how it works, and if it still needs help take it to a dealer who knows how to set them up and won't jerk you around (Or learn how to do it yourself, they are easy to work on). There is no reason why your bike should not work properly. If in doubt, ride another to see if it is you or your bike. Guzzi's are often not perfect as they leave the factory but if the owner is willing to put forth the effort to work out a kinks they are very rewarding bikes to own.

 

[Spaceclam]

Couple of points.

1. These bikes CAN NOT be remapped, unless you are loading a stock map into the ECU without some extremely expensive software. The ECUs are pretty tamper-resistant.

2. remove ALL slack from the throttle cables. As they come stock, the slack makes the rear drive lash feel much worse.

3. If your throttle bodies are not balanced, fueling will be dodgy at best. The o2 sensor reads from BOTH cylinders, sampled at the mid pipe. So if your idle balance is way off, then one side will be leaner and one will be richer at low throttle settings, adn the ECU can not correct for it. This will cause snatchiness and poor response between trailing throttle and power.

4. Modern US pump gas is designed to be used only 30 days or so after production. Between the high levels of volatile detergents, ethanol which is hydroscopic and other emissions related additives, gas will decompose AND absorb moisture if left to sit. New gas is a must.

I suspect what you are experiencing is a combination of things.
1. Having not ridden in a while as it has been parked, you are no longer used to the bike.
2. Bad fuel
3. throttle slack
4. Fueling
5. TB balance

I think replacing your fuel will make the most difference, but i dont think ALL of your problem is caused by just one thing. Once you fix all these things, your bike will run much better.

"I certainly dont want to start buying Power commanders"

YES YOU DO. If you were near me, i'd hand you the keys and you'd shit your pants.

 

[GuzziMoto]

Yeah, mine has a Power Commander as well (with the AutoTune module and ecu bit from Todd). It works much better now, but it worked pretty well before. Power Commanders are a good thing for any bike and can improve the way your Guzzi runs, but they should not be required to make your Guzzi run normally in the first place. Just about all new bikes have the same issue of using an O2 sensor for closed loop fueling at lower revs and throttle openings. Much of the issue is the emissions standards that want the bike leaner then it wants to be. So any issue like old gas or too much slack in the cables ends up being a bigger deal then it would have been since it was already borderline to begin with. That is not something that only effects Guzzi's.
Oh, and Honda doesn't make Guzzi's, Italians do.

 

[cyclobutch]

And with apologies to any here who've endured my whining before:

I bought mine from eBay without viewing with just 1500 miles on the clock. From the amount of lurching that I was getting at low speeds it quickly became clear that something wasn't right. I took it into the nearest dealer for a service and complained about this at the same time (and I was still under warranty) and he told me they were all like it and I should have bought a G12.
The service there made no difference.

Two weeks before the warranty expired I happened to mention my concerns whilst visiting another dealer. The proprietor took the bike out and agreed. We spent the Summer waiting for, I think, some shims to arrive. I used a Speed Triple for the duration - which was nice. They then stripped the CARC and I think reshimmed it. They also serviced it, inc TPS/throttle body set up etc. It was now improved but still pretty lousy.

Next up I adjusted all of the slack out of the throttle cables. And because I like the clutch bite point nearer the bars I filed some metal out of the adjusters to accommodate that. This at least made it a little easier to control.

Next up I went to a third dealership and had what might be called a silent block bush or some such fitted to the front of the torque arm for the CARC. The mechanic told me that the situation was improved. Seemed the same to me.

The bike has always popped on the overrun on the std can. I found a cheap(ish) Termi on eBay and fitted that. I have not fitted the baffle. The bike running remains unchanged. It lurches no better or worse than before. It still pops on the overrun, it just sounds louder.

This last week I have been back to that last dealer and had what I think is the new(ish) and only other MG map installed. 150 miles later I can tell no difference.

The bike is lousy to drive on the throttle at low speeds pretty much whatever gear I am in. I have to keep the clutch covered, and use it regularly to make smooth progress. I have to be careful getting back on the power on roundabouts as it can come in with a jolt. It's just fine ruining at speed.

It remains my contention that this is more about slack through the transmission than fuel mapping, though I'd love to be proved wrong. I know Pete would maintain that you can't expect things to be perfect with a small volume producer like MG; I've owned a V50 II, LM II and a Cali/T3 bitzer and they were all infinitely better than this.

I bought the G11 Griso in yellow because to my eyes it's pretty much the best looking production motorcycle, ever - inc. the std can. With all due respect it has a 'purer' look than the G12, with the stacked can and ridiculous frilly front brake discs. It is also pretty much the worst motorcycle I have ever owned and certainly the most disappointing by an awful long way. I've now owned the bike a little over two years (it's a mid '06) and still agonise over selling it. It will almost certainly be the last 'modern' MG I buy though I may well go for another T3/Tonti in the fullness of time.

Is mine unusual in this respect? my pal has one in black, same age - same problems. Good luck with your quest.

 

[Spaceclam]

The driveline lash is real bad then the bike is new. It seems to break in as the bike wears in and actually get better. For me, it was like a switch at 3k.

The bikes are pretty lurchy due to EXTREMELY poor fuel mapping in the closed loop section. There are also vacuum leaks that contribute to this problem, which they call the stepper motor and the carbon canister. Remove them and plug the holes.


Excuse me for being a little jaded, but you need to verify that your dealer in fact set things up properly, before getting too pissed and selling it. For a while there, i was about ready to throw mine off a bridge, until i realized that BOTH times i had paid my dealer for service (including break in), they had merely changed the oil and set the valves. TBs were HORRIBLY out of balance, TPS was WAY off, all kinds of nuts and bolts were loose, and it ran like crap.

Mine popped like crazy too, even with the stock can. I tried to tell my dealer that the aftermarket pipe had nothing to do with it, but he pretty much claimed that my muffler ruined my motor so there would be no work done, and that "all bikes pop on decel". Be wary of dealers.

Perhaps there is something mechanically different about yours. I hope not. Fueling correction + 1500 miles should do the trick.

 

[ericf]

Interesting to hear everyones thoughts, particularly Cyclobutch.

Some comments:

"I suspect what you are experiencing is a combination of things.
1. Having not ridden in a while as it has been parked, you are no longer used to the bike.
2. Bad fuel
3. throttle slack
4. Fueling
5. TB balance"
1. I am used to the bike. The most recent ride was the worst!
2. The last ride was about 120 miles, got rid of the old juice and a tank of new stuff. The new stuff was 98 ron shell power v to give it a treat. Where possible I run my car and bike on it. No difference whatsoever.
3-5. Maybe you are right but apart from the throttle slack how does a non mechanic address these issues?

"Oh, and Honda doesn't make Guzzi's, Italians do."
There is no excuse for a product that simply does not work - character should not be equated to faults. I have owned or ridden bikes from most of the major manufacturers, Honda, Yamaha, Triumph, Ducati and Kawasaki (I have even tried a Harley - out of curiosity but I couldn't bring myself to buy one!) and none of them have ridden like my Griso. The nearest in terms of fuelling issues was the FZ1 which was a late 2006 full power model with FI snatch. This was easily over come by using a piece of kit called an Ivans FCE which is imported here from the US. Even without it the "snatch" was nowhere near as bad as my Griso.

Hope I can sort it because I bought the bike for the looks and the bit of character that my FZ1 was lacking. The performance isn't in the same league but I knew that, I just want to enjoy the bike.

Cheers. E

 

[GuzziMoto]

3-5. Maybe you are right but apart from the throttle slack how does a non mechanic address these issues?

"Oh, and Honda doesn't make Guzzi's, Italians do."
There is no excuse for a product that simply does not work - character should not be equated to faults. I have owned or ridden bikes from most of the major manufacturers, Honda, Yamaha, Triumph, Ducati and Kawasaki (I have even tried a Harley - out of curiosity but I couldn't bring myself to buy one!) and none of them have ridden like my Griso. The nearest in terms of fuelling issues was the FZ1 which was a late 2006 full power model with FI snatch. This was easily over come by using a piece of kit called an Ivans FCE which is imported here from the US. Even without it the "snatch" was nowhere near as bad as my Griso.

Hope I can sort it because I bought the bike for the looks and the bit of character that my FZ1 was lacking. The performance isn't in the same league but I knew that, I just want to enjoy the bike.

Cheers. E

A "non-mechanic" either sorts these issues by paying someone who knows how to do it or puts forth the effort to learn how to do it. Guzzi's are easy bikes to learn, much like learning to wrench on a Volkswagon Bug. An important point though is that just because a place is a dealer for Guzzi's does not mean that they know what they are doing. Talk to people if you want to pay someone and see who comes highly recommended.
The crack about Honda was not to say that Guzzi's don't work as well as Hondas but merely that they are not always built to the same level of finish and that some of them require the owner to put forth the effort to finish what the factory should have to bring them up to the level that other Guzzi's roll out of the factory at. It is a hand built Italian motorcycle, it will never be a Honda and I don't want it to. It needs more of a commitment to own then a Honda does. It is not an appliance, it is an Italian motorcycle. Most Guzzi's I know don't have the issues yours does. This means that either most Guzzi's work better then yours does and that yours needs some work to make it work like it was designed to or there is something wrong about the way you are riding the bike (too low of revs, not being used to shaft drive, whatever). Personally I would bet that your bike just needs to be setup correctly. Something as simple as removing the slack out of the cables can make a world of difference. Balancing the throttlebodies is also very important. Has either been done to yours yet?
Try to be rational here. If your bike does something bad that most of them do not, that means there is something wrong with yours and it needs to be fixed. That is not the bikes fault. It is up to you to fix it if you want it fixed. The bike can not fix itself.

 

[Spaceclam]

There are plenty of good resources on how to balance TBs, though you will likely need access to a vstd. A quick search will show how 15ccs of ATF, 30' of clear plastic tubing, and some banjo bolts (ideally harvested from the carbon canister you should have removed) can make a wonderful, and accurate TB balancer.

As far as the fueling, you are kind of stuck unless you want to go the reflash/pcv route (again, i think you would be amazed the difference it makes, but only a personal choice). Plugging off the vacuum ports for the stepper motor helped fine idle control, for me at least.

IF you dont want to do the work youself, like guzzi moto mentioned, find a GOOD dealer.

 

[GuzziMoto]

There are also things like the FatDuc module which is a cheap piece of low tech kit that can adjust the closed loop fueling in a simple, primitive way.
But before you try to adjust your fueling you need to address the basic issues as mentioned.

 

[rturo]

Interesting to hear everyones thoughts, particularly Cyclobutch.

Some comments:

"I suspect what you are experiencing is a combination of things.
1. Having not ridden in a while as it has been parked, you are no longer used to the bike.
2. Bad fuel
3. throttle slack
4. Fueling
5. TB balance"
1. I am used to the bike. The most recent ride was the worst!
2. The last ride was about 120 miles, got rid of the old juice and a tank of new stuff. The new stuff was 98 ron shell power v to give it a treat. Where possible I run my car and bike on it. No difference whatsoever.
3-5. Maybe you are right but apart from the throttle slack how does a non mechanic address these issues?

"Oh, and Honda doesn't make Guzzi's, Italians do."
There is no excuse for a product that simply does not work - character should not be equated to faults. I have owned or ridden bikes from most of the major manufacturers, Honda, Yamaha, Triumph, Ducati and Kawasaki (I have even tried a Harley - out of curiosity but I couldn't bring myself to buy one!) and none of them have ridden like my Griso. The nearest in terms of fuelling issues was the FZ1 which was a late 2006 full power model with FI snatch. This was easily over come by using a piece of kit called an Ivans FCE which is imported here from the US. Even without it the "snatch" was nowhere near as bad as my Griso.

Hope I can sort it because I bought the bike for the looks and the bit of character that my FZ1 was lacking. The performance isn't in the same league but I knew that, I just want to enjoy the bike.

Cheers. E

Hi Eric

I see you are in England like me.. My B11 has some “snatch” in the driveline at low revs

In 2006 I tested the G11 and B11 (before picking the B11) and didn't notice “snatch” on either .. though this may be more to do with me testing the higher rev ranges more than the lower or the dealer making sure his test bikes were top notch (good that he can sort them I guess if that's the case)

For reference I have run Shell 98ron like you, I have fitted a K&N and took off the airbox snorkel and fitted a slip on can (not attempts to cure the problem - I’ve got used to living with it) – all made no difference (good or bad) to the “snatch” . Taking the slack out of the cables at the first service made it easier to be smooth on the throttle but the biggest improvement I have seen has been when having the Throttle Bodies balanced … I’m still on the original map. Its still there though. I think its nota as bad as some and I adjusted how I ride to limit the impact - yours sounds a lot worse.

I’m convinced Guzzi must have used a different map to develop the bikes before they were forced to throw “environmental “maps at them prior to going on sale. Now the 1100 motor is now longer in any current model I can’t see any restriction on Guzzi releasing any map they want (depending on local laws)

Mine sat with half a gallon of normalS hell (95ron?) in the tank for about 12 weeks over the past winter and started first time and ran the same as when I parked her up..

We are about 150 miles apart - Fancy meeting up half way to compare notes and rattles ? Hawes in the Yorkshire Dales has good bike roads all around it ..

PS – the emissions canister others have removed is not fitted to UK bikes thankfully.

Art

 

[FrostBittenCanadian]

eric/cyclo: I'm not trying to sound patronizing here, I think you might be in a state of shock. I picked up a Stelvio in Mar/09. Love the bike but it definitely tried my patience the first year. After having ridden it for 6000km, I believe that Guzzis are really quite different. The drivetrain lash took a while to figure out. I've never seen throttle cables stretch like these, first 3000km I must have adjusted slack out of em 3 times,( which made ahuge difference to control each time.) After 3000km haven't touched em. probably had valves adjusted,tps set and throttle bodies synched about 4 or 5 times ( cam recall and cambox replacement account for twice) in the first 4000 km. The longer the bike ran the better it functioned without a doubt. After 4000km it seemed to settle down a great deal, and has run like a top ever since. Having never encountered a bike that is so particular for that long early in life took quite a bit of wrapping my head around. What rpm are you running the engine at? ( I realize mine is a 4 valve and yours a 2) Below 3000 rpm is not the happy place from my experience wit this drive train. 3000 - 4000 rpm OK, 4000 rpm and up ... no worries. Below 3000 rpm fuel economy is grand above 4000 not so much,and around the city the bike eats fuel. On the highway it gets great mileage. I have seen others on here state the fact that Guzzis like to rev and I have to concur. The advice you have been given by clam, guzzimoto et al is sound. Check it out. Cyclo don't worry it's not whining. Guys mine has made me curse quite a bit over the last year and a half, the lomger I own it the less cursing I do ( knock on wood). Just my two cents ,hope you get your issues sorted out. FBC

 

[GuzziHero]

Hmm, interesting points there, FBC. Caution, this post strays off topic, I just want to expand on points made above.

My cables have stretched (I'm on 2600 miles, 2700 if you count the 100 I did when the wheel sensor was naff...) but I dont really feel any driveline snatch or lash at all. I AM used to a California and before that a V50, so I guess I may be a bit numb to it by now.

I dont feel the rear rising prominently when I throttle hard, as the Cali does. Something I noticed today, when I am stationary and blip the throttle, the Griso seems to jerk RIGHT slightly, not left as the V50 and Cali do.

I did my tappets adjust at 2400 miles, not done anything with the throttles and it runs to my mind just fine. I would ask, have you ridden V-twin litrebikes before? I am pretty sure that if I'd only ridden 4 cylinder bikes then gone onto the Griso, I would have hated it immediately.

I am a little shocked how bad the consumption is, the FZR1000 got 35mpg at pretty swift speeds and the Griso barely beats that.

Two wierdnesses that I HAVENT gotten used to yet are:

a. how damn sensitive the Griso is to tyre temperature. I could get the FZR1000 and ride it pretty hard right from start-up, same with the Cali. The Griso needs at least 3-5 miles before those tyres do what I tell them to. Mind you, they are Metzeler and I have always hated Metzelers.

b. the more the Griso revs, the LESS engine braking there seems to be. I'm used to the Cali, and the FZR1000. You shut the throttle down on either of those at high revs and they slow dramatically. The Griso just...doesnt.

I like my Griso, to be sure. But I don't yet love it.

 

[GuzziMoto]

I dont feel the rear rising prominently when I throttle hard, as the Cali does. Something I noticed today, when I am stationary and blip the throttle, the Griso seems to jerk RIGHT slightly, not left as the V50 and Cali do.

All the CARC bikes have a floating rear pinion setup like the Daytona, Sport, and V11 bikes did. That setup all but eliminates the jacking of the rear end when you get on the gas.
The bike rocking to the side is that whole "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" thing. As the crank accelerates in one direction the case are being pushed in the other. The direction the bike rocks is determined by the direction of the cranks rotation and the amount is pretty much a result of crank weight and power output. The lighter the crank and less power output the less rocking.