Alternative engine oil

[Luma46]

I am sure that this was discussed here somewhere, but when I search 'engine oil' it tells me too many instances of the word...
Anyway, I am wondering if there is any consensus on using say 15W-50 or 20W-50 synthetic oils in the Stelvio. I have been using Mobil 1 15W-50 synthetic in pretty much all my bikes in the past, no matter if air cooled or liquid cooled.
Problem is that the 10W-60 is not very common in NA and I have not seen one in Canada in the usual outlets.
Another thing is that I ride here more often at temperatures less than 10C than at temperatures say over 25C.

 

[rbm]

Use of Mobil 1 is discussed at length in this posting. Albeit, the target bike is a V7 Racer, the topic and conclusions are still relevant to the Stelvio. Oil threads cause lots of polarization in the community.

 

[BravoBravo]

I use only 10W-60 in my Stelvio. This spring, when I was getting my bike out of storage, I found out that the service tech had accidentally put in 10W-40, so I had them dump it out and the correct weight oil put it. Everything I have been reading on this forum, and others, leads me to believe that for the "quattro valvole" engines, it is critical to use 10W-60.

-Bruce

 

[draidt]

I am sure that this was discussed here somewhere, but when I search 'engine oil' it tells me too many instances of the word...
Anyway, I am wondering if there is any consensus on using say 15W-50 or 20W-50 synthetic oils in the Stelvio. I have been using Mobil 1 15W-50 synthetic in pretty much all my bikes in the past, no matter if air cooled or liquid cooled.
Problem is that the 10W-60 is not very common in NA and I have not seen one in Canada in the usual outlets.
Another thing is that I ride here more often at temperatures less than 10C than at temperatures say over 25C.

It's been covered Ad nauseam, as far as I am concerned it's a no brainier FOR ME, The 8V motor is a different beast, then any of the previous Guzzi Motors. The factory says 10W60 with 15W50 as the second choice. I only use the Full Syn 10W60, I do not want to play Russian roulette with my motor.

 

[blakebird]

On other bikes (there have been 54 to this point since 1968) I've used just about every oil made....synthetic, dino, semi-....and have had terrific results.
On the Guzzis I've owned, I break from tradition and follow what the manufacturer suggests :lol:

Two bikes always got a steady diet of Motorex 10w-60, my 2V Guzzi 1200 Sport and my KTM RFS dirtbikes. KTM recommends Motorex, and the motor only holds a liter, so I will always err on the safe side..

The Stelvio NTX will also get Motorex Power Synt 10w-60. No personal experience, just a lot of accumulated anecdotal data from reading - and that has swayed me towards what the MFR'R RECOMMENDS.
Trying not to sound too condescending..... but you've asked enough very basic questions about the Stelvio on different forums that lead me to believe you're new to the marque and maybe mechanical stuff in general.

When in doubt, follow the mfr'rs recommendation. You may not find 10w-60 Motorex or Agip (or whatever meets the spec) on very many shelves - but it can be purchased online.

 

[Greyo]

...I found out that the service tech had accidentally put in 10W-40, so I had them dump it out and the correct weight oil put it...

Had a similar experience with my G8V.

Service tech poured in Motorex 15W-50 at the first service - I found that out after about a few hundred miles, when I noticed a burnt-ish smell when checking the oil level... dumped it all out immediately and refilled with Redline 10W-60, which I have happily used ever since (just clocked over 20,000 mi)...

 

[Luma46]

Well, I had an interesting visit to our local motosports outfit, this is a small town independent garage and they do bikes as well and have good supply of various motosports stuff. When I asked about 10W-60 oil, they were looking at me as if I fell from the moon. Did not know that such a weight oil existed and guy seriously asked me if the bike has a diesel engine... :lol: That gives you picture what is available in rural Alberta.
Anyway, these guys carry the Amsoil oils, so we looked into their brochure and they have four motorcycle oils, 10W30, 10W40, 10W50 and SAE60, all synthetics. I am just wondering about this SAE60, it is evidently a single grade oil so I am not sure if it is good for Stelvio, here is the link http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mcs.aspx

 

[WayneOrwig]

the target bike is a V7 Racer, the topic and conclusions are still relevant to the Stelvio.

Just to 'polarize' the discussion. :lol:

I do not think the V7 engine is very relevant to an oil cooled, 4 valve per cylinder, engine.
Sure, to some extent, an engine is an engine, but when you need a second oil pump just to pass oil through a radiator and dump it none stop on the exhaust valves, something is going on out of the normal.
And simply running an oil cooler with what appears to be no thermostat calls for a different viscosity range alone.

 

[Luma46]

These days engines are made with extremely tight clearances, be it cars or bikes. This is why you barely see any oil consumption on a properly run in engine. My 2006 12GS is air/oil cooled and has zero oil consumption and I run it even on 10w40 synthetic. My BMW manual doesn't recommend any specific weight oil and allow the use of anything from 10w30 to 20W50 depending on climate in which you ride and that makes sense to me. I just cannot understand why the Stelvio or other Guzzi bikes would be so different?
What worries me about these high weight oils like 10W60 is that they have a nice viscosity of 20 to 25 cSt at 100C, but at the same time they have 160 to 180 cSt at 40C. Who knows what the viscosity is when I am starting my engine at 3 or 5C in the morning before my trip. If the bike has tight clearances and I do believe the Stelvio has, I would argue that it doesn't get much lubrication before it warms up. And this is what worries me, I might get more wear with this heavy oil when cold as I would get with slightly thinner oil when hot.
I still have to research it some more, but I think I will stick what was serving me well on my dozen previous bikes, the good old Mobil 1 15W50 synthetic.

 

[fatal]

If you're using a 10/60 then the oil will have the characteristic of a 10wt oil at lower temperature and the 60wt when things warm up, the 10/60 would presumably flow easier at lower temps (at start up) than a 15/50 oil, and have better heat resililiance than a 50wt at higher temps.
These 8v motors have two oil pumps and run very hot, Moto Guzzi must know something about the type of oil needed. Unless Guzzi have a major rethink on oil viscosity I'll stay with 10/60.

 

[blakebird]

I look at the reasons you list why your oil choice is different than the manufacturer's. They seem reasonable, all things being equal, but there are considerations beyond what you've listed below.

IMO, it's likely that the ester based synthetics like Motorex, Silkolene, Motul, etc have characteristics the mfr'r wants....like performing in the tough duty environment of an air & oil cooled engine, or having a 'clingy' polar nature so they stick to engine parts and are there for startup.

Read up on the base stocks, etc....and whether the oil is Group III, Group IV (PAO), or Group V (ester)
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... ost1252272

I buy Mobil 1 15w-50 by the 5 quart jug at Walmart for the other bikes. Good stuff. Really good.
But there are other oils that give that extra cushion. You're paying good money for the bike, oil that costs $18/liter is only painful to buy the first time :lol:

These days engines are made with extremely tight clearances, be it cars or bikes. This is why you barely see any oil consumption on a properly run in engine. My 2006 12GS is air/oil cooled and has zero oil consumption and I run it even on 10w40 synthetic. My BMW manual doesn't recommend any specific weight oil and allow the use of anything from 10w30 to 20W50 depending on climate in which you ride and that makes sense to me. I just cannot understand why the Stelvio or other Guzzi bikes would be so different?
What worries me about these high weight oils like 10W60 is that they have a nice viscosity of 20 to 25 cSt at 100C, but at the same time they have 160 to 180 cSt at 40C. Who knows what the viscosity is when I am starting my engine at 3 or 5C in the morning before my trip. If the bike has tight clearances and I do believe the Stelvio has, I would argue that it doesn't get much lubrication before it warms up. And this is what worries me, I might get more wear with this heavy oil when cold as I would get with slightly thinner oil when hot.
I still have to research it some more, but I think I will stick what was serving me well on my dozen previous bikes, the good old Mobil 1 15W50 synthetic.

 

[Luma46]

If you're using a 10/60 then the oil will have the characteristic of a 10wt oil at lower temperature and the 60wt when things warm up, the 10/60 would presumably flow easier at lower temps (at start up) than a 15/50 oil, and have better heat resililiance than a 50wt at higher temps.
These 8v motors have two oil pumps and run very hot, Moto Guzzi must know something about the type of oil needed. Unless Guzzi have a major rethink on oil viscosity I'll stay with 10/60.

Well, I would argue with your statement that 10W60 oil behaves as 10 weight oil when cold and 60 weight oil when hot. I did some homework and gathered data on two premium brand names available here in Alberta. Sorry, couldn't get the table formated properly...

Viscosity (cSt) Pour Point Flash Point
at 100 C at 40 C degC degC
Amsoil SAE60 23.4 190 -34 242
Red Line 10W-60 25.5 173 -45 257
Red Line 15W-50 19.6 138 -45 252
Red Line 10W-40 14.0 89 -45 249
Red Line 10W-30 10.7 70 -45 249

Evidently, the heavier oils have higher/better viscosity at high temperature. At low temperature, and 40 C is not that "low" compared to early spring morning, the higher weight oils are still very thick/viscous, no matter if it is 10W or 15W. Again, you need to go to 10W-30 to get a reasonable viscosity at 40 C. The Red Lines have all pretty much the same pour point, and minor differences in flash point.

 

[blakebird]

you're still worrying about viscosity and ability to flow at low temps.

the important thing is that the engine parts have a film of oil on them at startup, those first few revolutions are where the wear is happening.....that's happened by the time any oil begins to be pumped and flow.


and that's probably my last response to this, lest it become a real oil thread.
buy what you want and use it, sounds like your mind is made up anyway

 

[fatal]

If you're using a 10/60 then the oil will have the characteristic of a 10wt oil at lower temperature and the 60wt when things warm up, the 10/60 would presumably flow easier at lower temps (at start up) than a 15/50 oil, and have better heat resililiance than a 50wt at higher temps.
These 8v motors have two oil pumps and run very hot, Moto Guzzi must know something about the type of oil needed. Unless Guzzi have a major rethink on oil viscosity I'll stay with 10/60.

Well, I would argue with your statement that 10W60 oil behaves as 10 weight oil when cold and 60 weight oil when hot. I did some homework and gathered data on two premium brand names available here in Alberta. Sorry, couldn't get the table formated properly...

Viscosity (cSt) Pour Point Flash Point
at 100 C at 40 C degC degC
Amsoil SAE60 23.4 190 -34 242
Red Line 10W-60 25.5 173 -45 257
Red Line 15W-50 19.6 138 -45 252
Red Line 10W-40 14.0 89 -45 249
Red Line 10W-30 10.7 70 -45 249

Evidently, the heavier oils have higher/better viscosity at high temperature. At low temperature, and 40 C is not that "low" compared to early spring morning, the higher weight oils are still very thick/viscous, no matter if it is 10W or 15W. Again, you need to go to 10W-30 to get a reasonable viscosity at 40 C. The Red Lines have all pretty much the same pour point, and minor differences in flash point.

Best forward this info to Moto Guzzi mate, they've obviously made a mistake.

 

[youcanrunnaked]

If you use the factory-recommended oil, and your engine fails under warranty, you will have a claim; if your receipts are for Mobil 1, and your engine fails, maybe not.

Reason enough?

 

[GuzziMoto]

The worst thing I see about these kinds of discussions is the seem to focus on the weight numbers, the viscosity of the oil. I am more concerned about the quality of the oil, what it is made for and how well is it made. The weight numbers do not tell you what the oil is going to do at 240 F (100 C) or beyond, only how thick it is at 100 F (40 C) and 210 F (100 C). And that is not tightly regulated either. They pretty much self govern themselves on that. And where some oils barely meet the standard even by their own tests others exceed the labeled ratings by enough that they could label it a grade higher.
Should you use the weight Guzzi recommends, generally yes. You should certainly use an oil that meets the standards for the grade of oil Guzzi recommends. But I am also careful to use a motorcycle oil that is SG rated because the additives in the oil are just as important as what weight the oil is. A 10/60 oil that is not made for plain bearings, flat tappet cams, and lacks the ability to take higher levels of heat will not be any better than Yak fat. As an oil is exposed to heat above what it can handle it tends to thicken up. As it thickens up it looses it's ability to absorb and shed heat. Then the motor tends to run hotter and the whole thing spirals down the toilet.
I would either use what Guzzi recommends or put in the time to research to see what else out there will meet or exceed the same standards. What I will not do is buy a different oil because it is cheaper or easier to get. Nor will I use something because someone I never met said on the internet that it was just as good.

 

[Luma46]

The worst thing I see about these kinds of discussions is the seem to focus on the weight numbers, the viscosity of the oil. I am more concerned about the quality of the oil, what it is made for and how well is it made. The weight numbers do not tell you what the oil is going to do at 240 F (100 C) or beyond, only how thick it is at 100 F (40 C) and 210 F (100 C). And that is not tightly regulated either. They pretty much self govern themselves on that. And where some oils barely meet the standard even by their own tests others exceed the labeled ratings by enough that they could label it a grade higher.
Should you use the weight Guzzi recommends, generally yes. You should certainly use an oil that meets the standards for the grade of oil Guzzi recommends. But I am also careful to use a motorcycle oil that is SG rated because the additives in the oil are just as important as what weight the oil is. A 10/60 oil that is not made for plain bearings, flat tappet cams, and lacks the ability to take higher levels of heat will not be any better than Yak fat. As an oil is exposed to heat above what it can handle it tends to thicken up. As it thickens up it looses it's ability to absorb and shed heat. Then the motor tends to run hotter and the whole thing spirals down the toilet.
I would either use what Guzzi recommends or put in the time to research to see what else out there will meet or exceed the same standards. What I will not do is buy a different oil because it is cheaper or easier to get. Nor will I use something because someone I never met said on the internet that it was just as good.

Good points. And research will I do. One thing is for sure that Agip is not known as a best oil products producer in Europe.

 

[Mi_ka]

One thing is for sure that Agip is not known as a best oil products producer in Europe.

Well, I have always been considering another european firm as top notch but their oils scored badly in the following review exactly at the points that I considered that my buck was buying top performance for my car: Slippery enough when cold.
So, I am not sure what to believe any more.
http://www.lnengineering.com/oiltest.pdf
Yes, this test is just part of the picture but I suppose is a good measure of performance when cold.

 

[contractor20]

Golleee Sargent !!!I bought some of that Penrite 5W 60 SYNTH by accident instead of Penrite10W70 that Roper uses and wondered about its mechanical properties. I think it will be used after we fix this rear main leak on the Griso. Better get out to the shed and lift off the Wheel barrow (i mean rolling frame) now my son has arrived!! :whistle:

 

[Penis Rotor]

Yeah, but your problem isn't oil related Kym, its manufacturer defect relatedand yu're still wearing it, which shits me.

Call me sometime. I've got to go to Adelaide thursday after this but if I can I'll come down and help with the pull and fix.

Pete