Bad start to New Year.

[Fiat500]

First of all happy New Year to everyone and safe riding.

So after doing a fork oil change I wheeled the bike out and hit the starter and got nothing.
Had a check under the seat and tried again and after a few more tries it started only to stop after running for 30 seconds and again nothing from the starter.
Now and then it will start only to shut down after a short time almost like the key it turned off but instruments are still lit up and pump runs on for a moment before stopping.

So here is what i know.

I have starter wiring mod
Battery is OK
Instrument go through normal sweep and fuel pump primes.
Have swapped relays.
No error codes showing.
Checked 2 x 30 amp main fuses.
I did remove tank when I was working on forks.

I am stumped to what it could be so any help would be very appreciated.

 

[canuck1969]

Retrace your steps for when you removed the fuel tank and make sure everything is connected properly and no bent vent or fuel lines. Also check the electrical connections to the tank. Lastly, check the grounds, especially to the battery if you removed it and make sure everything is good. If it worked before you removed the tank and does not work now, it will be something you did during the re-install.

 

[Fiat500]

OK, fixed but in the worst possible way.
I don,t know what I did to get it going !

Removed the tank again and went through every connection I could get at and checked earths.
Pulled all 3 - 30 amp relays and swapped them around again.

What,s odd is I was going to test the tip over sensor but when I toke it off I noticed the arrow on the rubber boot was pointing down instead of up. Now I am sure I have never removed it from it mount but anyway made sure sensor and boot are the correct way up.
Would it have started sometimes with sensor upside down ? Wouldn't have thought so.
Another good thing is now with the engine running I am getting 13.4 volts at the dash when I have never seen higher than 12.9 in the past.
Go figure.

 

[canuck1969]

Have never seen the inside of that particular sensor but most have a ring that slides on a half circle. It should not run when it is upside down.

You said you switched relays around. Are you sure all the relays are the same type. The carc bikes have 5 pin relays that look identicle but some have a diode in them to restrict flow direction on the trigger. Just make sure you are changing the right ones.

The fact that you voltage went up points to a potential ground or power issue. That makes sense given your previous issues. I would pull both battery terminals and give them a good cleaning to remove any corrosion. Also check where the ground wire connects to the chassis of the bike. Should be to the back of the starter but not 100% on your bike. The ecu does have a low voltage cut off. That may be your issue.

 

[Fiat500]

Thanks for reply canuck.

Earths are by starter are are clean and tight as are battery terminals.
The 3 relays I swapped around are the starter,fuel pump but not sure what the third one is but they all have the same code but will recheck.
And my first thought was low ECU voltage but ECU error 20 should have come up ?

Anyway it lives so I will put it down to Italian electrics and having owned a few Fiats in my time if I ever had a electrical fault I would just wait a day or two and usually it would fix its self.

 

[canuck1969]

Sometimes it is better to just leave things alone and not question the Guzzi gods. Just keep an eye on it.

 

[Fiat500]

HELP ! Has done it again. Got a clonk from starter since then nothing, Its not the starter as no power is getting to solenoid when I hit start.
Off on a big trip North next Saturday.

 

[Fiat500]

Just found the 15 amp inline fuse for the startus interruptus mod had blown. Replaced it but still no go.

 

[Fiat500]

So after trying every thing I could think and in a fit of madness I just pressed the starter button repeatedly and It started.
Still not keen to start my trip not knowing what is going on. Could it be as simple as a bad contact in the starter button?

 

[abbienormal]

Seeing as there was nobody else jumping in with ideas I'll toss out a few. Either the contacts on the starter button or one of the relays depending on which startus interuptus mod you did. I believe the kit has a relay in it but I forget. Suffering from CRS as I just installed one this summer. Cold be repeated input jarred the relay to work. Try some plastic safe contact cleaner or something like Deoxit in the starter switch and see if that helps. Could be intermittent operation on the clutch switch or side stand switch which is prone to failure also.

 

[Fiat500]

Thanks for input abbienormal.
I think I can rule out relay as I swapped it two more times to no avail.
I am also thinking stater/clutch or sidestand switch. Will give them a spray as you suggest.

 

[canuck1969]

Verify the side and clutch switch but you would not even get a clonk from the starter if that was the problem.

I suspect something with the mod. Unfortunately not up to speed with that mod so i can't even comment on the electrics but something blew the fuse. Any chance there is an easy way to bypass the mod and go back to stock to see if the problems goes away. From what I gather you should be able to jump the relay 30 an 87 terminals and bypass the starter button. If you direct me to a schematic of the mod I may be able to point u in the right direction.

Lastly it may be a starter issue itself. Perhaps a stuck solenoid or the windings them selves are starting to go. That is just a guess at this point. Easy enough to pull the starter and bench test it.

 

[Fiat500]

Hi canuck, have not had a look at the schematic myself all I know is you pull the yellow wire from starter relay and replace it with a direct feed from the battery. Also I get no voltage to the solenoid when it wont start so must be up stream from starter I think ?

 

[Brian UK]

If the solenoid doesn't pull in completely then the high current coil in the solenoid is still in circuit, which will blow that 15A fuse. To prevent this happening, if you get that clunk, or just nothing, flip the start button out to the kill position immediately.
If you are not getting volts at the solenoid spade terminal when you hit the button, then clearly something is stopping the current. Go back over the start mod wiring to make sure all the connections are good. You could have a faulty inline fuse holder. When I did the mod it worked fine for a time then I started to have problems again. I found one of the connections I had just crimped was not as good as it should have been, so I soldered it too. Made quite a lot of difference.
The other problem I found was that the solenoid plunger was covered in sticky grease. I cleaned this off and put a light smear of oil over it (though some would suggest leaving it dry). This also helped.
If you can get in there, when you have the problem, try bridging from the main upper terminal on the solenoid to that spade. It should then spin the engine over. If it doesn't you have a faulty solenoid or starter. To just check the starter, try bridging the two main terminals on the solenoid (you will get sparks). This should spin the starter, but not engage with the engine, if nothing then you have a faulty starter motor.

By the way, I think it should still start if the side stand is down, but the engine will die if you try to engage a gear. It won't start if the neutral light is not on. Guess how I found that out.

 

[canuck1969]

The starters do get a lot of clutch dust in them and can hinder performance. It was a problem with some of the stelvios. I pulled mine and actually gave it a good cleaning and lube. There is an actual TSB on how to do it. Pretty sure yours will not be that different. Worth a look. With Brian's input starting to sound more like a stuck solenoid issue. Might as well start there.

For bench testing just do a YouTube search. Plenty of videos on how to do it.

 

[Fiat500]

I have bench tested starters before so will remove mine but bare with me here and see if I am barking up the wrong tree.

Side stand switch. If it was not working wouldn't the dash light not go on and off as I moved it?

Clutch switch. In neutral gear with stand up it will start with clutch in or out so would not matter if switch was not working?

Now that it is starting I tested 12 volt feed to activate solenoid and it goes live as i hit starter yet when it wouldn't start I had no reading.
This is why I don,t think its the starter?

Still leaves starter button as a possible problem?

Can,t find a wiring diagram that I can read clearly and as electrics are the work of the devil I am not sure it would help me if I could.

Its going fine now so lets hope it was just lack of use over winter and a dozen starts a day on our trip will fix it.

Once again thanks for the input from everyone and I will let you know if it is ever solved but I am still open to any ideas for a fix.

 

[canuck1969]

I have bench tested starters before so will remove mine but bare with me here and see if I am barking up the wrong tree.

Side stand switch. If it was not working wouldn't the dash light not go on and off as I moved it?

That is correct. The light should be going on and off. If it is, not the switch

Clutch switch. In neutral gear with stand up it will start with clutch in or out so would not matter if switch was not working?

Correct, clutch switch only comes into play when the bike is in gear. If the bike starts in gear with the clutch lever in and the side stand up then the switch is working.

Now that it is starting I tested 12 volt feed to activate solenoid and it goes live as i hit starter yet when it wouldn't start I had no reading.
This is why I don,t think its the starter?

I now agree with you on this point. Does not sound like the starter solenoid. Sounds like the power supply to the solenoid. Again, not sure of the wiring with the mod, but the starter button is starting to sound more reasonable now. Especially since after stabbing it a few times it works. Should be easy enough to take the starter switch housing apart and give it a good cleaning. May have some carbon buildup on it. Lets put it this way, wont hurt. I spray mine after every couple of washes with WD40 Silicone spray. You can actually get to it from the outside by flipping the switch to engine kill and there is enough room for the spray straw. Yes....I don't need to hear the speeches about using WD40 on the switch, will take the lube of....yada...yada...yada.......been doing it for 5 years on my stelvio switch gear and has never cause any issues so I don't need to hear the lectures.

Still leaves starter button as a possible problem?

Can,t find a wiring diagram that I can read clearly and as electrics are the work of the devil I am not sure it would help me if I could.

Try the one I attached to the post.......

Its going fine now so lets hope it was just lack of use over winter and a dozen starts a day on our trip will fix it.

Once again thanks for the input from everyone and I will let you know if it is ever solved but I am still open to any ideas for a fix.

I have bench tested starters before so will remove mine but bare with me here and see if I am barking up the wrong tree.

Side stand switch. If it was not working wouldn't the dash light not go on and off as I moved it?

That is correct. The light should be going on and off. If it is, not the switch

Clutch switch. In neutral gear with stand up it will start with clutch in or out so would not matter if switch was not working?

Correct, clutch switch only comes into play when the bike is in gear. If the bike starts in gear with the clutch lever in and the side stand up then the switch is working.

Now that it is starting I tested 12 volt feed to activate solenoid and it goes live as i hit starter yet when it wouldn't start I had no reading.
This is why I don,t think its the starter?

I know agree with you on this point. Does not sound like the starter solenoid. Sounds like the power supply to the solenoid. Again, not sure of the wiring with the mod, but the starter button is starting to sound more reasonable now. Especially since after stabbing it a few times it works. Should be easy enough to take the starter switch housing apart and give it a good cleaning. May have some carbon buildup on it. Lets put it this way, wont hurt. I spray mine after every couple of washes with WD40 Silicone spray. You can actually get to it from the outside by flipping the switch to engine kill and there is enough room for the spray straw. Yes....I don't need to hear the speeches about using WD40 on the switch, will take the lube of....yada...yada...yada.......been doing it for 5 years on my stelvio switch gear and has never cause any issues so I don't need to hear the lectures.

Still leaves starter button as a possible problem?

Can,t find a wiring diagram that I can read clearly and as electrics are the work of the devil I am not sure it would help me if I could.

Try the one I attached to the post.......

Its going fine now so lets hope it was just lack of use over winter and a dozen starts a day on our trip will fix it.

Once again thanks for the input from everyone and I will let you know if it is ever solved but I am still open to any ideas for a fix.[/QUOTE]

 

[Fiat500]

Cheers canuck1969, now that one I can read.

 

[Bisbonian]

What sort of battery are you using?
Some of the Lithium-Iron batteries can cause a similar sounding problem if the temperatures get low. For me, low was less than 50 degrees F.

 

[canuck1969]

Just looking over the drawing and following the startup logic. Have you checked the Retaining Relay number 4. If I follow the logic correctly, if that relay is not working you will not get power to the startup relay. I believe this is the relay that holds the start until it fires on the Norge. This did away with that function on the newer Stelvios and replaced it with what they now call the maintenance relay. Different story, but serves the same kind of purpose.

This relay has a diode in it to restrict the flow of current in one direction on the trigger. Basically when you push the start button, that relay will fire and then start the startup sequence. The fact that you are not even getting a relay click when you start makes me think that this relay is not firing (assuming the start button is working). The starter button should work or not work (most times), but a relay can stick at times. Next time it does it, I would give that relay a tap and see what happens. Those relays are easy enough to take apart and give a good cleaning. I have had to do that but just make sure all the carbon buildup is gone before it dries back on. You can also take a piece of emery paper between the contacts on the inside, failing that, by a spare just in case. These are not your typical Bosch relays since they have the diode so may need to source from the dealer.