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Grabby Clutch on 1000SP

Rafael

Rafael

GT Reference
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
1,096
Location
San Leandro, CA
Hi all

My SP has about 13k miles on rebuild, all the clutch parts were replaced, down to the flywheel. Last year the clutch started to act up at about 8k miles. A Canadian rider I met at the National in Salida said that it was the throw out bearing. Replaced it and it seemed to improve for a while but then the symptoms came back. Since the symptoms occur after the bike is fully warm I think I wasn't paying close attention. Not sure why the bearing replacement would make a difference anyway, except if it had little chunks of metal floating about in it. What happens is, after it's warmed up, is that, when I pull in the clutch lever, the clutch remains engaged for an extra second or two. The clutch engages abruptly as well. No smooth feathering. I have an idea what it might be but I'd like some feedback. All the cables and rear actuation lever seem to be adjusted correctly.

thanks,
 
I experienced a grabby clutch on a 96 Cali 1100i. Turned out to be a stuffed bearing on the input shaft for the gearbox. Sometimes the clutch would work fine, other times it acted as a switch. Not easy to check without removing the gearbox, I suspect.
 
I found my clutch hub notched and the inside splines of the clutch plates pretty knackered. The friction material would have lasted another 50k miles, I bet. I replaced with a deep splined hub and Stucchi plates to match. Nice feathering now. This on my '80 Lemans. It was very toggle switch like before, with the rear of the bike jumping up on the shaft when the clutch "went in".
 
Could also be the splines on the flywheel or did you change that too ???
 
Thanks fellas, looks like the usual suspects. I'll have to go in, too bad I was just had the trans (gearbox) out last year to fix a leak at the engine rear main seal. I'd be surprised if it turns out to be the flywheel but I suppose it could be dust mucking up the splines mating with the pressure plate. My thought is that it's a warped intermediate plate because it only occurs when hot. But out of the three ideas I'll put my money on the stuffed bearing in the gearbox; only because it sounds expensive to fix and something the mechanic that did the rebuild could have left undone. He had a first gear in place of a second before I got it back, so nothing surprises me on this bike. Dave, What's a stuffed bearing??? Is it a failed bearing? How do I check it once I have gearbox out? I imagine that I'd have to pull the seal out then grab the hub and see if I can move the shaft laterally.

thanks for your comments.
 
My guess is splines on either the hub or the flywheel. If you still have the shallow spline clutch hub and/or used Surflex shallow spline plates which are no really shallow spline but a sort of 'One size fits neither' spline you'll probably find they are ready to fail too.

If the clutch was reassembled without using a tool to compress the springs oir the plates were put in reversed this will also cause a problem.

As for the gearbox? My and others' instructions on stripping and re-shimming are up on Greg Bender's site under the Guzziteck dk archives section. Don't forget to replace the o-rings on the input and output shafts if you go in as well as the seals or you'll have leaks and destroy the new clutch,

Pete
 
I did use a clutch tool to reassemble the clutch. But it's possible that I put the plates in in reverse orientation. Which way should the offset (protruding side) be pointing? I remember the symptoms occurring some time after I put her back together. Would be nice it it were something that simple, but I'm usually pretty careful about marking parts as they come out. I guess I should start tearing her down now, but its so cold in my garage, 45 F!
 
Well I just cracked it open. Couple of you got it right, the friction plate splines are severely worn. This, I think, is caused by not riding the bike. My guess is that condensation, formed on the clutch hub and friction plate splines, rusted, then when I drove it the rust dust wore the parts prematurely. I have to remember to leave a small heater on in the winter. Oh well, didn't get many miles out of that clutch. Still have inspect the flywheel... Is there a way to check the input bearing with out opening the gearbox?

Last time I rebuilt my T-3 clutch or had any other clutch ( except the SP, must have doubted myself ) apart I would grease the spline with a mixture of lithium grease and graphite. I'd brush it on with a tooth brush and leave a super thin coat. I can't remember where I got this idea, anybody try this before? Have not had a problem with it - T-3 is still clutching fine after 15 years.

One last thing, anybody know the thread pitch of the crank shaft? Found my hub tool bolt (M12x1.5) with damaged threads, there may have been a mismatch, I'll try a new bolt tomorrow but if it doesn't go in I'll have to clean up the threads with a tap and I want to make sure I get the correct thread pitch.

thanks again, Rafael

Oh ya, I did had the clutch plates in correctly.
 
I've been chasing grabby clutch problems on my 850T for 10yrs now. Next time will be the end of it, since I won't put in Sureflex plates, and will switch to Stucchi or SD-Tech, which I put in my SP, and work fine. The grabby action always gets worse with heat, and I originally blamed it oil contamination, since I could temporarily cure it by doing the old kerosene rinse-in-place trick. Always comes back. It's been sitting for a year now, waiting for new plates, as it really renders the bike unrideable.

You may have a combination of problems. My advice would be to upgrade to the deep spline hub and and new Stucchi or SD plates

Both the 850 and SP had really hosed splines when I go them. If you were sitting at a stop on the 850, and started to engage the clutch, then changed your mind, the plate splines would have dropped into notches in the input hub, and refuse to completely disengage. This was made worse by the previous owner, who had moved the kill switch to the center of the bars under the clocks because it looked cool. Not easy to access while you're trying desperately to hold the bike back as it tries to roll out into traffic with the wife on the back.

Best of luck,
-BG
 
PS: Grease those splines! Sounds like you've already had the pressure oxidation experience, where the splines keep rusting and losing material.
 
If the machine still has a shallow, (2mm) spline clutch huband you were using Surflex plates that'll be the reason for the clutch's rapid demise. The Surflex 'Shallw' splines aren't genuine 2mm items they are a sort of 'One size fits neither' between the shallow and deep splines and tend to chop out very rapidly, often in only a couple of thousand Km.

Their 'Deep' (4mm) spline plates are fine but some people think they are grabbier than some other manufacturers plates? I dunno, I've got Surflex deep splines in my old Tontis and I have no problem with them.

Either way, the best way to fix the situation is to swap to the later deep spline hub and use whatever plates you choose. Being an earlier, pre-'84, model the gearbox input bearing will be a 2305AC3 with 14 balls per race and a serentine cage. These are very durable so unless your bike is very high mileage or you have suspicions about thebearing's integrity it will probably be fine. Do replace the o-rings and seal when you do the hub though.

Pete
 
T Bill said:
PS: Grease those splines! Sounds like you've already had the pressure oxidation experience, where the splines keep rusting and losing material.
Click to expand...

Don't grease the splines. It is a two plate clutch and clutch dust will mix with the lube and act as an abrasive paste compounding the problem. Yes you do want to lube single plate clutches like BMW and possibly the new 8 valve Guzzis with a single plate because the travel area is protected by the design of the clutch spline area, but not the two plate units.
 
Hi, can I jump on this thread and ask a question?

I have a deep spline replacement clutch for my T3, but looking at my starter ring I'm wondering if I need to replace it as well, the face for the clutch plate appears to have worn, it has a very slight rippled feel to it and has a slight wear step on it.

P6120103-1.jpg

On this photo the ruler is resting on the step but you can just about see the wave wear pattern under it .

P6120105.jpg


This photo shows the wear on the starter engagement teeth, is this a deal breaker?

What I want to figure out is if I can get the clutch face returned or do I have to shell out the 120 euros and get a new one?


Thanks.
 
unk-tantor

To me the ring gear looks marginal at best. If you face the clutch plate surface you may get by, but the teeth are chewed up pretty well (the Bosch starters tended to do that). Also carefully inspect the pressure plate and intermediate plate. If the ring gear shows that much wear on the clutch surface, those would be suspect as well. If it was my bike, I'd replace it. When you consider machine shop cost vs replacement, it is a case of you might as well replace it.
 
john zibell said:
unk-tantor

To me the ring gear looks marginal at best. If you face the clutch plate surface you may get by, but the teeth are chewed up pretty well (the Bosch starters tended to do that). Also carefully inspect the pressure plate and intermediate plate. If the ring gear shows that much wear on the clutch surface, those would be suspect as well. If it was my bike, I'd replace it. When you consider machine shop cost vs replacement, it is a case of you might as well replace it.
Click to expand...

The rest of the clutch, which is the shallow spine type is definitely mashed , and about to be replaced with the deep spline kit.
 
John Z, thanks for confirming thread pitch for the clutch tool, the thread is now straight again. I must have screwed it up last time I used it, but I did find that the bolt does have a slight wobble.

Well it turns out I have the Surflex friction plates with the deep spline clutch hub. The rust powder chewed everything up. So the ring gear and pressure plate will get resurfaced, the splines look good and everything else will be new from MG Cycle. I'll be trying out the Stucchi plates since the SD-Techs are out of stock.

I tried to wiggle the clutch hub laterally, no play. Hopefully that's good enough. Anything else I should do to check the input bearing?

Well I'm not convinced that I shouldn't grease the splines. My experience with my T-3 tells me otherwise. T-3 sat in the same garage getting less miles and the clutch is is even older- maybe 10 years older so that's about 20yrs with out corrosion. Not sure what plates are in there, they might be Sureflex or OEM. Guess I'll find out when I crack here open someday.

I agree with not greasing for a bike that is constantly driven but for a bike that is parked a lot – a little anti-corrosion goes a long way. As far as the type of grease used, I'll use an anti-seize which has a 1500 degree F melting point and will go on thin. As for the dust sticking, the main source of dust seems to be the clutch splines them selves. Centrifugal force should move the remaining dust way from the hub.

Hopefully this is the last of the restoration fiasco for this bike. It's been 10 years now discovering and fixing problems cause by a crappy mechanic. No more adrenaline spikes keepin her from moving forward when she should be stopped. She's also getting a new drive shaft and coupler.

Thanks, to all for your input. See you on the road.
 
Rafael,

I'm not sure which year Guzzi went from metal cage to plastic cage on on the input and output bearings of the transmission. It may be worth pulling the back cover of the transmission and looking at the bearing. If it is plastic cage, replace with metal cage bearings. Pete Roper can get good ones in Oz for you. I've used these with good results http://www.applied.com/apps/commerce/ca ... a&mp=3205B but they aren't as good as teh ones Pete can get, but they are available in the US. Also I'd replace every seal and o-ring plus the shifter spring while the transmission is out. Also it wouldn't hurt to check the shift drum shimming while it is apart. Shimming the drum properly makes a big difference. Pete has an excellent write up on Greg Bender's web site.
 
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