GTM Fueling Info

[MMV9]

Hi

This thread starts from 2009 and my post the other day that was deleted with a re-direction to here was based on the 2021 ECU update by MG for the V7 V9 that implied the fuel mix would adjust according to the lambda air mixture. Is this 15 year old post still gospel in most peoples' opinion?

Mat

 

[scottmastrocinque]

This is the very simplistic explanation.

There is nothing more misunderstood and riddled with false information, than common belief of what an O2 sensor does, and how.

Readers Digest version: O2 sensors do one thing and one thing only. They attempt to get the engine to run in the theoretically perfect AFR of 14.7 : 1 ratio. This is all they do. They ARE ONLY ABOUT EMISSIONS AND DO NOTHING WHATSOEVER FOR OPTIMIZING RUNNING. PERIOD.

In OPEN loop operation, the ECU utilizes the F.I. table only. It uses the hard value coded into the table and values from the air and temperature sensors.

In Closed loop operation, the O2 sensors completely disable the Fuel Injection Table in the ECU, and begin a constant hunt for this 14.7: 1 ratio.

This is the only goal and function of an O2 sensor.

In the case of a “narrow band sensor”, this has the ability to make “Closed Loop 02 correction” to fueling to try and reach this 14.7 : 1 ratio if the variance from this target value, is narrorily rich or lean from the target value.

If the “read” value of the O2 sensor is outside of this narrow range, the ECU just ignores any data until the time the read value comes back within the sensors diagnostic range of operation, whereupon it resumes making extremely small adjustments again.

Wide band sensors, have the same ability, but they can effect the “Closed Loop O2 correction” across a wider range from the 14.7 : 1 target ratio.

If the wide band sensor reads values outside its normal range, it does the exact same thing as the narrow band sensor I described above as well.

This is why the GTM fueling solutions work so well, they first start with a much better and optimized base map.

Additionally they utilize wide band sensors to try and effect correction across a wider range of read values.

Finally, the Autotune is integrated in concert with the PowerCommander to create the most advanced fuel modification solution with fully dynamic modification and on the fly programmable target values that can be used on a motorcycle.

The foundation of all of this is the customized base map that GTM crafts for you that gets downloaded by the GTM tool.

So yes, GTM’s statements on this product can be considered gospel.

 

[Hurk51]

Great explanation Scott!
I have noticed on my 2021 Euro 5 V85TT when i am reading "Live data" with my tool and i go into closed loop i do not get steady fuel numbers on both cylinders until i hit 3500 rpm with the stock fuelling map that Guzzi has installed. This seems to correspond with people doing reviews on the internet of the bike when it came out that " it likes to rev" comments and it also corresponds to what i have seen on spark plug conditions for fuelling. You can also see the results of this 3500 rpm in the live fuel usage/ fuel mileage readout on the bikes TFT display. Guzzi wants the bike to rev higher so that the cat converter is in its optimum range for burning unburnt fuel and the O2 sensors seem to like that rpm as well to control in the band they were designed for IMO. What is interesting in the live data on the stock map is when you look at the fuelling of each O2 sensor below 3500 rpm the fuelling is not balanced cyl to cyl. One cyl is running very rich compared the other.

 

[V700Steve]

Fueling engineers at MG are not the best, they should find some better ones.

 

[MMV9]

Fueling engineers at MG are not the best, they should find some better ones.

I think it's the curse of air cooled engines and Euro 5 compliance, Euro 5+ will probably be worse. BMW manage with their air cooled twins but they've way bigger development budgets.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Fueling engineers at MG are not the best, they should find some better ones.

How long will these terrible myths persist?

Moto Guzzi has been part of the Piaggio Group since 2004.

Two Thousand and four. That’s 20 years.

Aprilia, is also one of Piaggio Group’s marques.

“In 2022, Aprilia experienced impressive growth in terms of results (their first MotoGP win, another eight podium finishes, and two pole positions) which placed the Italian team among the championship protagonists, in the battle all the way to the end of the season for the most prestigious objectives in every category.”

They have brilliant fueling engineers. Some of the very best in the world.

What causes the problems are the insane EU regulations which are borderline capricious in their rigidity and application against the manufacturers.

 

[gmc28]

This is the very simplistic explanation.

There is nothing more misunderstood and riddled with false information, than common belief of what an O2 sensor does, and how.

Readers Digest version: O2 sensors do one thing and one thing only. They attempt to get the engine to run in the theoretically perfect AFR of 14.7 : 1 ratio. This is all they do. They ARE ONLY ABOUT EMISSIONS AND DO NOTHING WHATSOEVER FOR OPTIMIZING RUNNING. PERIOD.

In OPEN loop operation, the ECU utilizes the F.I. table only. It uses the hard value coded into the table and values from the air and temperature sensors.

In Closed loop operation, the O2 sensors completely disable the Fuel Injection Table in the ECU, and begin a constant hunt for this 14,7: 1 ratio.

This is the only goal and function of an O2 sensor.

In the case of a “narrow band sensor”, this has the ability to make “Closed Loop 02 correction” to fueling to try and reach this 14.7 : 1 ratio if the variance from this target value, is narrorily rich or lean from the target value.

If the “read” value of the O2 sensor is outside of this narrow range, the ECU just ignores any data until the time the read value comes back within the sensors diagnostic range of operation, whereupon it resumes making extremely small adjustments again.

Wide band sensors, have the same ability, but they can effect the “Closed Loop O2 correction” across a wider range from the 14.7 : 1 target ratio.

If the wide band sensor reads values outside its normal range, it does the exact same thing as the narrow band sensor I described above as well.

This is why the GTM fueling solutions work so well, they first start with a much better and optimized base map.

Additionally they utilize wide band sensors to try and effect correction across a wider range of read values.

Finally, the Autotune is integrated in concert with the PowerCommander to create the most advanced fuel modification solution with fully dynamic modification and on the fly programmable target values that can be used on a motorcycle.

The foundation of all of this is the customized base map that GTM crafts for you that gets downloaded by the GTM tool.

So yes, GTM’s statements on this product can be considered gospel.

Nice info Scott… thanks for that.
But to enhance my clearly lacking knowledge here, can I ask or confirm in caveman terms:

1) the base map is optimized as you note, and that’s the job of the up-map device (vs the flash tool, which is for other earlier/other ECU’s?)
2) and GTM uses wide band sensors for a wider range of read values, but when we say sensors do we mean we’re controlling wide band sensing via the PC6, or the actual o2 sensor, or both i assume? (Or am i way off? Probably…)
3) and for Autotune, does it do what I’ll call the “calculations” for our desired fueling, and then uses the PC6 to execute the real-time changes?

Been reading through threads to learn more (and Todd pointed to this one), and I’m just trying to close the loop on some of these probably pretty basic questions, if someone will indulge me.

And I suppose another way of asking all that, is to just say as a buyer who’s excited to do the Todd treatment, I’d still love to learn what the up-map does vs the PC6 and auto-tune, simplistically. If a guy does up-map and full exhaust, what advantage is missing without the pc6+autotune? Up-map makes the bike run well (changes ECU map) with the improved exhaust (and airbox), while pc6/autotune is the key for the low rpm running and those kind of issues?

 

[JStorm]

Based on the above explanation, it adds more questions (from my viewpoint). ASSUMING the stock narrowband sensors output a typical range of 0-1v signal based on readings and a typical WBO2 sensor output covers a range of 0-5v. Are there changes in the map to be looking for the larger range of sensor output? I assume the maps use a different voltage target coinciding with the desired AFR for given points in the map.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

And I suppose another way of asking all that, is to just say as a buyer who’s excited to do the Todd treatment, I’d still love to learn what the up-map does vs the PC6 and auto-tune, simplistically

The rest of your post is all over the place so I will just answer this one here.

FIRST: What does a FI map contain. 1 thing. The pulse width to utilize for the specific conditions at that exact moment. It can only change the duration of how long the injector remains open, thereby allowing fuel to be introduced by the injector into the engine.

A PowerCommander (PC) allows you to utilize an alternative map location (The PC itself) as opposed to replacing the existing map in the ECU. IT IS NOT DESTRUCTIVE of the factory map.

Take 5 minutes and disconnect your PC and the bike runs right back with the factory stock map. The PC is “in front” of the fuel injector, between the ECU and the injector. It intercepts the pulse width signal, and replaces it with the values contained within its base map.

A Up-Map actually overwrites your factory fueling map within the ECU. IT IS DESTRUCTIVE of the factory map.

An AutoTune takes information it obtains from the 2 wide band sensors while running, and it will optimize the Base Map contained in the PowerCommander, making changes on the fly to the values within the base map, based upon its monitoring of operations during your riding. It is able to establish patterns of throttle usages that you utilize, and can optimize the base map fueling as well as institute changes moment by moment, on the fly. Again, the AutoTune is trying to seek out the defined AFR which has been programmed into the base map contained within the PC setup. It does this by modifying the pulse widths of the FI signal to the injector. It allows this self-directed “micro-tuning” to be retained and transferred to the base map.

This is what GTM does when you send your map to him. He reviews the changes and makes edits if he feels that the AutoTune may be going in a less than perfect direction, and then returns your Base Map to you where you reload it onto your motorcycle. GTM’s experience and training allow him to perform this successfully. It is not something that you should be attempting to mess with yourself as you can dig yourself into a fairly deep hole very quickly messing with parameters you really honestly do not understand.

The Flash Tool, allows you to switch 2 different maps in and out of the ECU. It also provides maintenance tools like TPS reset functionality.

This is a very basic explanation and technical questions for owners of this system from GTM, should be directed at him but virtually most everything you could want to know, he has posted in the forums and you can find the links to those posts, on the SHOP site where the individual PC6 and AT-200/300 products are listed.

No offense but I do not want to become the FI question / answer machine. It’s not my product and I don’t sell it. I just use it on 2 of my 8 Moto Guzzi motorcycles.

 

[gmc28]

The rest of your post is all over the place so I will just answer this one here.

FIRST: What does a FI map contain. 1 thing. The pulse width to utilize for the specific conditions at that exact moment. It can only change the duration of how long the injector remains open, thereby allowing fuel to be introduced by the injector into the engine.



A PowerCommander (PC) allows you to utilize an alternative map location (The PC itself) as opposed to replacing the existing map in the ECU. IT IS NOT DESTRUCTIVE of the factory map.

Take 5 minutes and disconnect your PC and the bike runs right back with the factory stock map. The PC is “in front” of the fuel injector, between the ECU and the injector. It intercepts the pulse width signal, and replaces it with the values contained within its base map.



A Up-Map actually overwrites your factory fueling map within the ECU. IT IS DESTRUCTIVE of the factory map.



An AutoTune takes information it obtains from the 2 wide band sensors while running, and it will optimize the Base Map contained in the PowerCommander, making changes on the fly to the values within the base map, based upon its monitoring of operations during your riding. It is able to establish patterns of throttle usages that you utilize, and can optimize the base map fueling as well as institute changes moment by moment, on the fly. Again, the AutoTune is trying to seek out the defined AFR which has been programmed into the base map contained within the PC setup. It does this by modifying the pulse widths of the FI signal to the injector. It allows this self-directed “micro-tuning” to be retained and transferred to the base map.

This is what GTM does when you send your map to him. He reviews the changes and makes edits if he feels that the AutoTune may be going in a less than perfect direction, and then returns your Base Map to you where you reload it onto your motorcycle. GTM’s experience and training allow him to perform this successfully. It is not something that you should be attempting to mess with yourself as you can dig yourself into a fairly deep hole very quickly messing with parameters you really honestly do not understand.



The Flash Tool, allows you to switch 2 different maps in and out of the ECU. It also provides maintenance tools like TPS reset functionality.



This is a very basic explanation and technical questions for owners of this system from GTM, should be directed at him but virtually most everything you could want to know, he has posted in the forums and you can find the links to those posts, on the SHOP site where the individual PC6 and AT-200/300 products are listed.

No offense but I do not want to become the FI question / answer machine. It’s not my product and I don’t sell it. I just use it on 2 of my 8 Moto Guzzi motorcycles.

Perfect. I’m not preparing to write a term paper on it, just wanting to get my head a little more around the “slightly more advanced” basics, and what you wrote is about perfect for me. I’ve never have and I’m sure never will get into the details of writing fueling maps, but also don’t want to be the guy who sees a PC under his seat and not know the basics of “what this thingy does”.

So what you wrote is spot-on for what I was looking for, and thanks for that!
But one last question, if you’re game: Why use both a new ECU map & a PC6 map? My simplistic view has always been that they accomplish the same thing, which as you note is adjusting the pulse width for the injectors (adjusts fuelling), but what’s different about their function such that we’d use both (a new ECU base map plus then modifying the signal via the PC)?

My current attempt at answering my own question is that perhaps the modified base map does the “heavy lifting” for programming fuel the way Todd wants it based on the bike mods and all that, then the PC6 allows for the auto-tune to be utilized for the more micro, on-the-fly adjustments?

 

[scottmastrocinque]

My current attempt at answering my own question is that perhaps the modified base map does the “heavy lifting” for programming fuel the way Todd wants it based on the bike mods and all that, then the PC6 allows for the auto-tune to be utilized for the more micro, on-the-fly adjustments?

Correct.

Coarse settings vs. Fine adjustments.

As I wrote earlier, the PC keeps its own map and leaves the ECU one intact. This was to prevent manufacturers voiding warranties as nothing was actually modified on the motorcycle ECU itself.

The Autotune makes fine adjustments to the PC map. You can overrwrite the ECU map with the PC map and this is what the GTM flash tool allows you to do, and you can instantly switch back to the stock FI map, with the tool, should you wish to do so.

Quite honestly, if you buy the full Monty setup for fueling from GTM, then Todd will get you dialed in, and then you do nothing except ride it and send in a copy of your map at least once a year, and he will evaluate it, tweak it if he feels that something is unique to your configuration, and then you load this tweaked version back onto your motorcycle, and away you go for another year.

 

[Warnzie]

Yes, can't wait to get my PC6 / AT300 from Todd Ordered and waiting with absolute anticipation...looking forward to writing my positive thoughts once installed