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Leaking Voltage at Battery Earth

Message to John Zibell.
Heck , sorry , I skimmed right over your last post . As you will have read in my reply to OJ , today I'm going to establish voltage at the lamp, one way or another.
Thanks John
Regards Supaflee
 
Good Grief Supaflee :lol:

No problems I've done stuff a lot lot worse than not noticing a lamp and having a realization.

The panel lights sound like they need sorting out. All of the warning lights for "Brake Fluid Level", "Oil Pressure Warn" and "Charge Warn" have a positive 12 Volts directly fed to them from the fuse box, it should be a red wire. That wire is then paralleled (piggybacked if you like)to each of these warning lights.

All of these warning lights are switched on by devices downstream of the bulb. In the case of the "Oil Pressure Warn" and "Brake Fluid Level" a switch takes the individual circuit to the frame, completing the circuit, and allowing current to flow and light the relevant bulb.

If the brake fluid level bulb is still connected to its original wire one side should be Red/Yellow, if its connected to the "Charge Warn" then the other wire color should be Blue. The color for the "Oil Pressure Warn" should be Blue/Black. As I said earlier the other side of them all should have a red wire. If they don't then you need to make connectors to feed the supply to the other bulbs. This is also borne out by what you say about the bridging out the oil pressure switch (I assume you are just touching the cable to the casing and nothing happens).

I'll wait to see how the temporary wire experiment goes and what you find and take it from there.

I post as Old Jock coz I am Scottish (in the UK we are sometimes called Jocks, among other things) I am no spring chicken (sigh, 57 on Tuesday) and also as it's the name of a leg buckling ale served in my local.

Oh and ignore Mr Zibell's posts at your peril, he's out me right more than once :shock:

Look forward to the next episode

John
 
Ah , I now have an Oil Pressure Warning Light that functions as it should .This is real exciting. Like a little kid with a bloody torch in the dark for the first time :D .!!!!
Now ,, I mean some time soon I'll persevere again to see about the damned Charge Lamp .I checked the bulb and it was kaput , I already renewed it recently :?
I'm confident the Low Brake Fluid Lamp will never glow again , as there is no switch to activate it , and it's now connected correctly . That circuit is redundant on my bike.
When I got into the wiring in the back of the panel I found there were several feeds to the lamps ,,,,all are white .
After some time sorting , I've got them sorted so they go to the correct lamp. OJ , the other side of the lamps circuit is all black/red. Someone has been in here before us .
Regards Supaflee
 
It sounds like you are making progress.

Gotta love the surprises lovingly left by previous owners who didn't know what they were doing :lol:

Strange about the bulb blowing but all you can do is replace it and take from here.

Can't wait to see what happens when you finally get power to the "Charge Warn" to see if that's the cause of your charge system problem.

John
 
Today I sorted all the respective circuits at the instrument panel and now I have a generator Warning Lamp - Wow !! Here's a little trap for all of us to get caught in :lol: .
After determining that there was 12 volts at one side of the Generator Warning Lamp , ignition on , and only about half a Volt on the other side , I figured the Lamp should be illuminating,but it wasnt . So I yanked the Lampholder out of its panel socket and tested the Lamp for continuity at the spades.....ZERO. Removed the Lamp , held it up to the light , I could see the filament , tested it for continuity , Whammo , excellent. Put it back in the holder ...Zero.
WTF ??? :?: :?: :?:
I rotated the lamp 180 degrees in the holder and it was good again.Rotated it back to where it was and Zero once more :( .
Here is the trap !!!! The poxy little wire contacts on the wedge Lamp were only making contact one way round. On real close examination of the holder's internal brass contacts , I found them both to be deformed enough to aviod contact with the Lamp , hence no continuity. BE AWARE when doing continuity tests . :woohoo:
So , I now have a nice brightly illuminated Generator Warning Lamp . A nice brightly illuminated Oil Warning Lamp ( which goes off when its supposed to ). And everything else at the panel functions as it is supposed to .
However , now , my Generator Warning Lamp does'nt go out , at all . I'm confident it'll be a simple fix though.
I'll go back to the start of the thread , I'll read it all again , and do a few component tests to determine the function of the rectifier and the regulator and Generator. One of them is sad :whistle:
One step at a time , wow Im sure getting to know my Guzzi well .
Regards Supaflee
 
Hi Supaflee

Brushes are good, clean, not worn and slip rings clean?

All the connections on the generator, rectifier and regulator where they should be and clean and tight?

If you are unsure of what goes where PM me your email and I'll send you a diagram in Excel or pdf of what is connected where.

Earth on the regulator Ok?

If all these are yes I'd start with the rotor and stator resistance checks suggested by John Z and go from there.

John
 
Supaflee

One more thing bearing in mind that your instrument cabling has been, altered.

You will probably want to check that the "Charge Warn" is wired from the bulb down to the brushes.

Remove the cable at the generator that is on the DF lug, on my bike the wire is purple. Using a Voltmeter check the connector on the wire has 12 Volts to frame, with the Ignition On (the Charge Warn will not light when you do this).

A test light is not so good as it has a lower resistance, if you use a test light to check, it will probably glow dimly as will the Charge Warn, but using a test light for this check can be a bit hit and miss.

John
 
Im about to go and bridge DF/D+ at the regulator . This should cause maximun voltage to the field windings and cause the generator to output at maximum capacity ,,,,,,,,Correct?
Is anything likely to go "zzzzzzzzzzzzzwhhoooopoooof" in my face ? I'll keep the revs low enough ( 1500 ), as youve suggested in another post , so as to "only just" determine if the battery voltage increases or not .
Regards Supaflee.
 
Supaflee

Did you do all the other checks like rotor and stator resistance and check that there is a voltage down to the field on DF as suggested earlier?

I ask as these are safer ways of troubleshooting and if it was me I'd do all the nice safe checks first to try to hunt down the problem.

Shorting DF to D+ at the regulator will cause the generator to output max volts.

I'd keep lights off and set everything up first. Then with the engine at idle or just above (1500 rpm) short it across the terminals for a second or so to see if the charge warn light goes out.

It's probably also a good idea to put a voltmeter across the battery and watch battery volts before and during the check.

If its only done briefly and at lower rpm's nothing should blow up.

John
 
OJ , I checked the voltage at DF the way you said. It is Zero.
DF on my generator is an insulated stud connection point on the left hand side of the bike.
Here's an interesting thing , the opposite side D- , similar looking terminal has continuity to the frame ,the wire to it has 12 volts on it though.
Tomorrow I'll check the AC voltages at the 3 wire plug.
Whew , what a headache.
Regards Supaflee
OOOOOpppsss. was the bike supposed to have the engine running as I took these figures ,,,,,,,it was not running . :?
 
Hi Supaflee

No you did it correctly. Ignition on and bike not running. The DF on the stator housing is the connection to the brush that then feeds volts to the rotor via the slip rings. You should have +12 on there.

Now I'm confused about your statements on D-. D- is the other brush it has a lug on it for a terminal but is grounded through the stator frame to the engine and is the return path. I'm confused because you say it has continuity to earth, as it should. Then you say it has a wire on it with +!2 V. If that was the case it would be a short unless I'm missing something.

Here is how mine looks

AlternatorWiringConections.jpg
 
AAAAAhhh, I can see what the problem is , now Ive seen how it's supposed to be in your pic !!
You are absolutley correct there , is definately a direct short. The blue wire on my bike is on the wrong lug.
It should not be on D-. It should be on " Y " as shown .
I'll make the change in the morning and let you know how I've got on.
OMG , what else has been connected wrongly??????
Thanks .
Supaflee
 
Double D

Hi how is the M-Unit working? All good I trust?

Supaflee

LOL :lol:

You are not the first guy I have come across to have that connected to the wrong lug.

The thing is the blue wire should not have +12V on it. The Y is where the other side of the 3 stator coils are tied together and goes back to the rectifier.

If it was a direct short to earth on a +12V wire in the charge circuit it would have melted the wire. I am starting to struggle a bit with what is going on.

The first 2 things to get sorted are

1) Make sure you have +12 on the DF wire with the ignition on and the lead pulled off the lug, measure the voltage at the wire NOT the lug. When you have the wiring correct to the Charge Warn bulb, when you pull the wire off DF the light at the panel will also go out.

2) Put the blue wire onto the Y connection.

Lets see what happens then

John
 
OJ, not only were the generator wires the wrong way around , the purple-ish brown one with 12Volts on it coming from the regulator , was on the frame lug of the generator (I wonder what that has stuffed up , nothing I guess , otherwise it wouldnt have any Voltage on it ? ).
So , I now have a wire from the regulator (purple-ish brown ) , going to the DF at the generator with 12 Volts on it .
The Blue wire is now connected to "Y" lug the same as in your pic. ( if only I knew how to upload pics )
My battery is too far down to start the engine , so I'll report again when I've charged it sufficiently to get her running.
I wonder if I'll ever bump into the Dude that put all this together , an "auto electrician" , in Christchurch somewhere, yeah right !!!! LOL
Regards Supaflee
 
Uh-oh, shes all charged and connected up the correct way but theres no AC output when shes running . :x
Theres definately voltage on the purple-ish wire "DF", but only 10.2 volts. Tested it at the regulator and its the same there .
The blue wire to the stator "Y" , has no voltage on it. Should it have ?
Rotor resistance is 3.5 ohms . Stator resistance is .62 ohms .
AC voltage at generator =zero , or not readable and the same at the other end of the lead at the Rectifier , zero.
Regards Supaflee
 
Resistances sound Ok to me John Z quoted values on the LMII Charging problems thread

6.9 across the brushes
0.62 on the stator

Book quotes 3.4 on the rotor, so for now I'd assume good (unless JZ chips in to tell us otherwise), at least till we get the bloody wiring sorted :lol:

Rectifier should have the following

MP comes from the Y connection at the generator (Blue)
D+ from the Charge Warn bulb (usually LH tag, but doesn't matter as long as on D+) (Red but might be Blue)
D+ to D+ on the regulator (RH tag, but doesn't matter as long as on D+) (Red but might be Red/White)
W, V, U, three wires from generator (any yellow wire to any connection, the order is not important) (Yellow)
B+ is the charge wire back to the fusebox it shows it on the top frame the wires are connected to the lug on the RHS of the rectifier. (Red)
B- is the earth but its grounded through the rectifier frame (no wire)

GuzziRegulator.jpg


Regulator

D- to frame, this requires a wire to be taken to the frame (Black)
D+ to D+ on the rectifier (Red)
DF to DF on the generator (Purple)

Once that is all checked and you confirm the following and I know you have done some of it already :roll:

Fully charge the battery with a charger, check battery voltage, what is the value?
Ignition on (kill switch off, this is to reduce battery loss and stop the coils overheating)
Does the charge warn bulb light?
What is the value on the purple DF wire (Edit I had this wrongly originally in the post as D+) with the wire disconnected from the generator?
What is the battery voltage at this time?
Did the charge warn light go out when you lifted the purple DF wire (Edit I had this wrongly originally in the post as D+) off the generator?
Does it light again when you put it back on?
Disconnect the three Yellow wires at the generator start the bike (remember that Kill switch) and measure at 1500 to 2K rpms the voltage on each of the lugs with respect to another lug (Edit The lugs on the stator not the wires). U to V, U to W; W to V, Remember it's AC I expect 30-50 AC volts and rising with higher RPMs, I do not have an exact value. What are the values they should all be approximately the same?

If none of that works then I reckon you'll need to full flash it as described earlier to see if that works

To answer your question about the blue wire. No it should not have Voltage on it when the engine is not running and I think less than 2 V AC when it is. It is the other side of the coils that the Yellow wires are connected to. It has all 3 of the coils tied together there (hence the Y as the symbol)

Probably all as clear as mud

John
 
OJ , thanks . Its pretty clear now . As time has gone on Ive been able to get familiar with what the various wires do , what part they play in the overall picture , so , "clear as mud" , no , very clear indeed thanks to yor help over the last 50 or so communications tutorial.
I just dont see why the bugger isnt generating now .From what youve said in your last post , it orta be .
I owe you and JZ big time .
Tomorrow Ill confirm all ofthose connections you have described .
Regards Supaflee.
 
To measure the rotor resistance, you need to lift the outside brush or you are reading the resistance of the charge indicating bulb. The 0.62 ohm is way low. Re-test the rotor with the brush lifted and let me know what you get.
 
John did Supaflee not say the stator resistance was 0.62 Ohms and the rotor 3.5?

Certainly it would be good to confirm it has been done correctly though

John
 
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