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Non-motorbike specific Oil

Discussion in 'V7/V85/V9 Chat & Tech' started by Mikael Weiss, Mar 15, 2019.

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  1. Mikael Weiss

    Mikael Weiss Just got it firing!

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    Hey guys,

    I was looking around for some 10w60 oil, as per the owner's manual for my V7 III and realized that Motul sells its car specific blend for a fair amount cheaper, here in Canada anyway.

    I realize that typically, you wouldn't use car specific oil in a motorbike as it may interfere with the clutch's operation but, seeing as it has separate transmission oil and a dry clutch, is there any other reason why I should stick to the motorbike specific oil?

    I tried searching the threads but didn't find what I was looking for.

    Thanks in advance!

    (and just for the sake of it:)
    DSC_8649-01.jpeg
     
  2. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Never realised there was a motorbike specific 10W60 oil. Everyone I know uses standard 10W60. So long as it's synthetic to take the higher temperatures of the air cooled engine.
     
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  3. Raven

    Raven Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

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    I used the Motul for a year, no problem. I buy my ENI in the States since it's not too far away.
     
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  4. sib

    sib Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Check out the API ratings of the two oils. The V7 manuals specify API grade SG. Most modern oils are designed for cars and have higher API grades, which might or might not work as well in motorbikes. API grade SG has the highest concentration of the anti-wear additive ZDDP The reason why automobile-specific oils have lower levels of ZDDP is because it tends to inactivate catalytic converters. These oils contain various other anti-wear additives, which may work adequately, but ZDDP is considered to be the most effective anti-wear agent. Or so it says on the interwebs :).
     
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  5. Mikael Weiss

    Mikael Weiss Just got it firing!

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    Thanks for the answers, everyone! I compared the API grades on both and they're both the same (SN). I'll go for the non-motorbike specific, then, as it's so much cheaper. (4L for 50$ vs 4L for 80ish$).
     
  6. jefrs

    jefrs Just got it firing!

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    API grades get superseded. API is up to SN and SN Plus now. SG is actually obsolete and should be considered as a minimum grade.

    The heavier 60 weight is wanted because we have an air cooled motor running hotter than water cooled, otherwise the oil would thin too much. The 'winter' 10W aids the multi-grade oil retaining viscosity in cooler parts of the engine, as well as cold starts.

    The Guzzi spec is for JASO MA, MA2 but bike oil is usually formulated to prevent wet clutch friction plates, which use a water-based cement, from coming unstuck. We have a dry clutch so I'm none too sure what they were thinking.
     
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  7. Bill Hagan

    Bill Hagan GT Reference GT Famiglia

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  8. jefrs

    jefrs Just got it firing!

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    What is perhaps worrying there is the nearly new liquid-moly in the Norge had turned black. Which usually indicates the detergent in the oil is used up. However molybdenum disulphide grease is black, so there may be something in the moly formulation that causes it to go black quickly. When the oil is used up, in this case the detergent, it thins out and probably doesn't cool the engine as well as it should, the oil cools as well as lubricates, even without an oil cooler. Being loaded with detritus, it may not pump round the engine as well as it should.
    Oils have other properties besides just lubricating the engine.
    Semi and full synth oils have better temperature stability for viscosity than mineral multi-grade. Originally developed for turbo chargers, when such oils heat up they remain closer to the desired viscosity. Which is important for an air-cooled motor too.
     
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  9. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT Famiglia

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    I'm not a fan of molybdenum disulphide in oils for motorcycles. It is great in industrial application in grease where heavy gear force is found, not so much in motorcycles.
     
  10. sib

    sib Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    That's what API would like you to believe. But I think there's a good reason why SG is still being manufactured and is recommended for the V7. The API was pressured into lowering the ZDDP content of oils by car manufacturers who needed to lengthen the life of catalytic converters to meet EPA regulations. Maybe the manufacturers came up with low-ZDDP oils that have equally good anti-wear characteristics, and maybe not. But it remains true the ZDDP is still the most effective anti-wear agent. It's interesting that, the way ZDDP works is that it forms a thin coating on cams and lifters that is actually degraded when exposed to high-pressure sliding friction. Therefore, the amount of ZDDP in the oil decreases during use. I haven't seen any data on the concentration of ZDDP that is left in grade SG oil after 10,000 km of use in the V7 engine, or whether there's any left in "higher" API grades, but it would be interesting to investigate (not by me, I'm retired:)).

    I fully agree with rest of your post and the succeeding ones. It's really puzzling why MG specifies JASO MA and MA2, which apply to wet clutches.
     
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  11. Kevin Ballowe

    Kevin Ballowe Tuned and Synch'ed

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    It's interesting to note that one of the differences between API "SL" and "SN" was that the API required 33% less cam bearing wear to get to "SN". These oils are meeting this requirement, with 800ppm or less of zinc/phosphorus.

    API specification "SG" is still showing up on "motorcycle specific" oils because the owner's manuals are still saying "SG". But as far as I know, these owner's manuals say "SG or higher". But, guess what is missing from these oil containers ? The API symbol. They tell you that they meet the specifications, but they have not been API accredited. Most of them. anyway. Oh, I believe that they meet the specification. Just an observation.

    JASO is not only about the wet clutch friction test. There are other tests for this specification. Less that .12% sulphated ash. 800 ppm or less zinc/phosphorus. Anti-foaming, etc. etc.

    We used to see a lot of "moly" in motor oils, because it was a cheap way to provide lubrication - but the price of moly has increased 10-fold and so the next "cost effective" solution was implemented.

    Castrol Edge makes a nice 10W-60. The Porsche (and other air-cooled) owners favor this oil. Your local auto parts store will likely order this for you - or if you're in Pacific, Missouri then they carry it on the shelf. I am using Silkolene Pro4 Synthetic/Ester 10W-60 because it was available and for a good price.

    I know of two Moto Guzzi dealers that use the Mobil 1 15W-50 oil. Available nearly everywhere.

    Want to know more? This is a good place to start. Real world used oil analysis results. Technical papers on lubrication. More

    www.bobistheoilguy.com
     
  12. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    A bit of a digression:
    A common misconception is that air-cooled engines run hotter than water cooled engines. Not so. Air-cooled engines have to be designed such that when running at maximum power output they have sufficient cooling to operate reliably, but it is very rare that any engine on the street is run at maximum power output continuously for any substantial length of time. In truth, in most uses, air cooled engines run cool, well under maximum safe operating temperature.

    One of the advantages of liquid cooled engines is that, presuming that the pump and radiator are sufficient capacity and flow volume, the engine can be configured to run at a consistent, and higher, operating temperature all the time. This is one of the factors that makes it much easier to meet emissions requirements with liquid cooling ... the emissions system doesn't have to deal with the variability and cool running conditions inherent in air cooled engines.

    Regard engine oil in Moto Guzzis, well, I've used Castrol GTX 10w40 and Mobil 1 5w10 and 5w15 very successfully for hundreds of thousands of miles operating in my old big block motors. Never once had a single engine problem that could be traceable to engine oil failure.

    I haven't yet changed the oil myself in the V7III Racer so haven't looked at the specs there. But I've not seen anything in the design of this engine that needs anything special in terms of oil ... It is just a simple plain-bearing motor with a roller chain for valve timing drive, no fancy multi-surface gear drives, desmodromic cams and lifters, clutch, or transmission to worry about. There's absolutely nothing in it that should require anything but a good engine oil of the appropriate spec and weight. :)

    G
     

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