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Norge rear brake problems

Discussion in 'BNS12 Chat & Tech' started by silvergoose, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. silvergoose

    silvergoose Tuned and Synch'ed

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    I have a 2007 Norge with what many say is a common problem.
    Air in the system requiring brake bleeding, while the front brakes are perfect the rear needs attention as often as a few hundred miles. That said I have the following questions:

    What other models of motorcycle use this MC,Caliper and ABS unit? Are those groups reporting problems?
    Can the system be isolated, pressurized and checked for leak down?
    Can the rear MC be isolated from the ABS pump? Has any one tried?
    Finally, what does Brembo say about this problem?

    Thank you
     
  2. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    I have no problems on my 07 Norge.
    Just because this issue has been mentioned here maybe a dozen times, does not make it a "common" problem, compared to the thousands of Norges out there.
    Have you tried riding continuously with the ABS switched off, just to try to isolate your problem?
     
  3. silvergoose

    silvergoose Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Not one to split hairs, common or not it is happing to my Norge. I was asking the question of others that may have the same problem, to the many owners that have not experience the problem, GREAT.
    Do you know of any one in your area that has had this problem and if so how was it taken care of?
     
  4. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Thousands of them? Hey we are talking Guzzi not Honda. I doubt there are thousands of any current model, which is part of a larger issue. If ten bikes of any model had the same problem, I would consider it a significant percentage.
     
  5. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    OK, divide by ten then John.

    Sivergoose, have you tried running with the ABS turned off?
     
  6. silvergoose

    silvergoose Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Brian, I have not turned off the ABS. What is your reason for doing so? If this would work would that not point to a problem with the ABS unit, Brembo? I really do not give a tinker's damn about blame, I have a problem along with several other riders, with a very important safty item,brakes.

    If you will tell me a good reason for turning off the ABS I am all ears, bearing in mind I do not like ABS on a two wheeled vehicle of any brand.

    Look forward to more information
     
  7. Nick

    Nick Cruisin' Guzzisti

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  8. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    The reason for turning off the ABS is to eliminate a possible cause, since to date, nobody appears to have solved this issue.
    In turning off the ABS you remove the active component, and this might just affect the repetition of the fault.

    By the way, at no time did I suggest it was not a serious issue for you, all I said that this was not as common a fault as you were suggesting. I'm sure if it were more common, we would also know the cure by now.
     
  9. silvergoose

    silvergoose Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Thanks, Brian, it seems that you and I are the only ones talking about this, brake problem. I am thinking that I may be the only person with the problem.

    Since it is only you and I, the question about the ABS pump, has not been answered. The pump should play the part of pressure inturupter in order to pluse the brake and control any skidding, that said the pump is simply a lump most of the time. It appears that the pump has two chambers, front and rear master cylinder. The question is how does the air get into the rear only master cylinder? Brembo makes a great many brake systems I am suprised that this problem does not(?) happen on more brands.

    My next approach will be to address Brembo. If their is interest i will post the answer, provided i get one.

    Cheers
     
  10. guzzibob

    guzzibob GT Reference

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    What exactly is the symptom here that you are trying to address. If it is that the rear brake is very wooden in feel, & goes from doing nothing to ABS kicking in without anything in between on a Norge, or the same brake on a non-ABS Breva goes from nothing directly to rear wheel lock up-that is not about air in the lines or the ABS unit, rather from Guzzi using a far too aggressive sintered metallic pad out back. Switch to a less aggressive organic pad & the thing gets somewhat (maybe 30%) better at minimal cost & effort. I & several others I know have gone that route with the results described. Todd sells 1 of several pads you can use. If that is not what you are experiencing, sorry, can't help-that is the only problem with my Norge rear brake.
     
  11. silvergoose

    silvergoose Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Thanks for the input GuzziBoB. The problem is not a wooden feel, but a spongy feel. The ABS does not come on and I have changed the pads to a less aggresive grade.
    What I do not understand is why is this happening only to the rear brake The front brakes are running "HH" pad compound and they work great, enlighten me to some thing I am doing wrong or not aware of.

    Thanks
     
  12. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    It sounds like air is getting into the rear system. Check that all fittings are snug. Then bleed again. If you are still getting air into the system, possible sources are the M/C, the caliper itself (from around the piston seals) or one of the metal gaskets at a banjo fitting is defective. Good luck on your hunt.
     
  13. silvergoose

    silvergoose Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Thanks for the inputs from everyone it appears as though no one has a clear cut answer to the problem. I have contacted the Brembo tech service group to get an input from the manufactuer, I will pass on any information.

    Thanks again for the interest and input.
     
  14. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    When a problem could have multiple causes it is very difficult to pin down the exact fault over the internet. A "clear cut answer" can only be obtained by actually troubleshooting the bike. The best we can do in these situations is give you a path to troubleshoot the problem. We try to do the best we can.
     
  15. JohninVT

    JohninVT Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Unless you're willing to spin a wrench, you will never get an answer. The only way to troubleshoot this is to eliminate the possible causes. So far you've just asked for the root cause and seemed frustrated no one can diagnose it.

    Q-"What's wrong with my bike?"
    A-"Have you tried this or this or this?"
    Q-"No. Why can't anyone tell me what's wrong with my bike?"
    A-"That is impossible without trying this or this or this."
    Q-"Yeah but what's wrong with my bike?"
    A-"Have you tried this?
    Q-"I'm going to ignore your productive and possibly problem solving advice and go spin my wheels asking MG USA, Brembo, the guys at Guzzitech and Silvio Berlesconi what the problem is with my bike."

    See where I'm going with this? Just saying. Go snug up the friggin brake lines and check your banjo bolts for starters. Make sure your master cylinder cap is on snug. Do something.
     
  16. silvergoose

    silvergoose Tuned and Synch'ed

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    More than willing to spin a wrench, you are right empirical testing is the best. While I didnot expect a clear cut path to problem, I was just getting input from the more learned.

    Thanks for your input;
     
  17. sbaker

    sbaker Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Hello;

    I am sure you realize that the rear brake is independent from the front. There is a master cylinder for the rear and for the front. This isolates the systems. With 2 chambers the ABS further isolates the front from rear. So comparing the behavior of the front and rear is probably not a viable test.

    I would suspect that you have a issue with either the rear master or the rear caliper, or the pluming betwixt. There have been 1 or 2 reports of rear master cylinder problems and also 1 or 2 of the rear caliper, but nothing to conclude a systemic or model wide issue. At this point I can only suggest that you have to somehow isolate each element of the rear brake system and test it individually, i.e. the Rear Master, Rear Caliper, Pluming to find your culprit. OR you can just whole sale replace all the major components. This would probably solve the problem, but leave the culprit undiscovered.

    I know.. not very earth shattering, but about all I can offer.
     
  18. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Just catching this thread... the ABS pump is not a Brembo item, so it is not a Brembo *system*. That said, assuming there are no visible leaks(?), I have heard of one similar problem caused by a slightly bent or warped brake rotor. Is the rotor perfectly straight? If it is, I would look to the hard-line connections at the pump to inspect for leaks (air and/or fluid). Hopefully it is not the actual ABS pump as they are rather spendy. I seriously doubt it is the master or the caliper... they are used on all CARC Guzzi now since '06 with no known problems.
     
  19. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    I might be going out on a limb here, but it might be possible to bypass the ABS pump and connect the foot pedal master cylinder directly to the rear slave cylinder using plumbing from a wrecked Breva or similar non ABS model. If the problem disappears, then the solution will be obvious.
     
  20. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    Apparently the issue is increased pedal travel. I discovered that on my own Norge after taking her out for the 1st time after about 2 months in a subbasement parking during winter. First impression was I had no rear brake anymore, but "searching" it far enough, I still get the ABS to kick in. It's a bit weird that this evolved while the bike was sitting still in a rather constant temperature environment. But given that I have over 44k km on the counter and the liquid might well be more than ready to be replaced (I doubt it's ever been done since the build date late 2006).

    Oops ... seems I answered a question that was already answered :blush: Anyway, with the engine brake we have, the rear brake mostly serves during parking manoeuvres and fixing the bike in up- or downhill stops at a red light, no? B)
     

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