Oil under the swing arm ...

[Penis Rotor]

No worries. Also I have the pinion seal retainer removal tool which I'm pretty sure most Guzzi dealers won't. If you're taking it to Italian Motorcycles tell them to give me a ring. I've helped 'em out before by sending them the gearbox splitter tool and I'm more than happy to lend 'em the seal retainer remover.

Chances are it's just the big seal. That can be pried out easily enough and if there is no discernable play in the wheel when you rock it top to bottom examine the balls which will be visible when the seal is out. If they look like minature moons, covered with craters, it means that the bearing is all galled up and stuffed. If that is the case then the CARC has to be split to replace the bearing. Either you or they should look at the balls VERY carefully with a magnifying glass as if they are galled and the bearing is shagged then just re-sealing it with another, expensive, seal won't fix the problem for long.

If you want to pop it in a box and send it to me that's no worries. I'm expecting another one from Queensland in the next day or so. It's off a 2005 Breva 11 though so it may never of had the recall work done.

Pete

 

[RJVB]

Well, dealer had a look this morning, and will order both seals to be sure to have what it takes.
I gathered from his reaction when I mentioned the special tool that they apparently are under some sort of obligation to have those, in order to be a dealer. Or he is simply a true professional who thinks it's self-evident to have all the required tools. Either way, I take the bike in on the 5th, and ought to retrieve her the 8th, that should leave them enough time to de- and re-assemble her

 

[bobra]

Have you not got the tools to take off the rear wheel and then remove the CARC and take it i to the shop in a box? It's not a big job and the Norge has a centrestand so it's pretty easy. Brake off (2 bolts.), wheel off (4 bolts.), disconnect torque arm (1 bolt with nut.), unclip brake line, unbolt CARC (4 bolts.). Place CARC in box, drive it to shop.
Pete

What size sockets do I need to get the rear wheel off? I seem to recall when I had the rear tyre replaced that the guy used something he normally used on a BMW - I got the impression it was an uncommon size.

If I can get it off, I'll ship it to you Pete.

Thanks

 

[rturo]

Have you not got the tools to take off the rear wheel and then remove the CARC and take it i to the shop in a box? It's not a big job and the Norge has a centrestand so it's pretty easy. Brake off (2 bolts.), wheel off (4 bolts.), disconnect torque arm (1 bolt with nut.), unclip brake line, unbolt CARC (4 bolts.). Place CARC in box, drive it to shop.
Pete

What size sockets do I need to get the rear wheel off? I seem to recall when I had the rear tyre replaced that the guy used something he normally used on a BMW - I got the impression it was an uncommon size.

If I can get it off, I'll ship it to you Pete.

Thanks

On my B1100 I'm sure its a 17mm socket reqd - mine came off no problem after a couple of years. They are well torqued up tho (110nm) so a length of pipe to give more leverage when getting them off makes things a little easier.

Art

 

[rturo]

No worries. Also I have the pinion seal retainer removal tool which I'm pretty sure most Guzzi dealers won't. If you're taking it to Italian Motorcycles tell them to give me a ring. I've helped 'em out before by sending them the gearbox splitter tool and I'm more than happy to lend 'em the seal retainer remover.

Chances are it's just the big seal. That can be pried out easily enough and if there is no discernable play in the wheel when you rock it top to bottom examine the balls which will be visible when the seal is out. If they look like minature moons, covered with craters, it means that the bearing is all galled up and stuffed. If that is the case then the CARC has to be split to replace the bearing. Either you or they should look at the balls VERY carefully with a magnifying glass as if they are galled and the bearing is shagged then just re-sealing it with another, expensive, seal won't fix the problem for long.

If you want to pop it in a box and send it to me that's no worries. I'm expecting another one from Queensland in the next day or so. It's off a 2005 Breva 11 though so it may never of had the recall work done.

Pete

Pete

Think you are missing a trick ... you are offering great service but only to the Aussies. You should spread out across the globe. We could do with some more of your "Get it back on the road and tackle the Guzzi network later" mentality here in the England and I'm sure FrostBitten would be beating your door down if you could find a way to keep Canada rolling....... hang on its cold in Canada, its either cold or wet here most of the time, perhaps we should move to Oz.

Art

 

[GrahamNZ]

moved per request...adam

 

[RJVB]

Graham, please copy/paste the post into the right thread yourself (I don't think we can move a single post), and we'll clean up after you.

 

[bobra]

I pulled the CARC off today. As Pete noted, it is rediculously easy! About 5-10 ml of oil pooling in the swing arm and over the anterior surface of the CARC seal. No evidence of oil further up the swing arm so I'm assuming that it's not a gearbox seal and the problem is restricted to the CARC.

There were some fine metal slivers attached to the CARC drain plug (is it magnetic?) which is a major worry. I'm assuming the grease spray off the universal joint is normal?

Anyway, it will be boxed up and shipped to Pete on Tuesday.

Regards

 

[RJVB]

I've been wondering, is there any kind of riding abuse that can make these seals go before their time? Lugging in too low a gear for instance? I don't recall Bobra's mileage, but mine has close to 40k kilometers, doesn't appear much for a seal of this importance and which in all likelihood has never been touched/tinkered with.

 

[bobra]

I've been wondering, is there any kind of riding abuse that can make these seals go before their time? Lugging in too low a gear for instance? I don't recall Bobra's mileage, but mine has close to 40k kilometers, doesn't appear much for a seal of this importance and which in all likelihood has never been touched/tinkered with.

18,000 km for me! I agree, I can only assume there was a faulty batch of seals or a bad day at the office for the installer. My riding style is more keep it above 4000 rpm and go hard. :evil:

One thing I didn't mention in my last post was how grungy the oil was - the bike was serviced 1500 km ago and I can only assume changing the oil in the CARC was not on the list of things to do.

Cheers

 

[RJVB]

I presume it wasn't on the bill, then?

My dealer has been changing all oils at each service. No idea how many extra man-hours he can charge for that, but I think it's worth the extra tranquility.

A thought - can water get inside the swing arm, possibly taking road dirt or salt with it?

 

[bobra]

Have you not got the tools to take off the rear wheel and then remove the CARC and take it i to the shop in a box? It's not a big job and the Norge has a centrestand so it's pretty easy. Brake off (2 bolts.), wheel off (4 bolts.), disconnect torque arm (1 bolt with nut.), unclip brake line, unbolt CARC (4 bolts.). Place CARC in box, drive it to shop.
Pete

You missed one - disconnect ABS sensor (1 bolt)

 

[RJVB]

Curious, my bike spent a few days on the side-stand (tue. ev - saturday afternoon), and it seems that increased the flow. 2-4 drops must have come out and dripped on the tyre. Possibly the fact that the arm was more horizontal than when on the centre stand with the rear tyre in the air?

Went to the country side anyway, but bought me a jerrycan of gearbox oil — Total, 80W90. Should be OK to top op either the CARC or the box should that prove necessary, no?
(only found 2l cans ... what other uses can this stuff be put to? :blink: )

 

[RJVB]

Just back from a cleaning and level-checkup tour of the bike.

The CARC oil level was visibly lower than the previous times I checked. I suppose the direct sun shouldn't have changed too much (the oil I keep in my RHS pannier was visibly thinner, though). I think I must have added somewhat less than 100ml of the aforementioned 80W90 to get the level back to just under the threads. That seems much, actually, not very sure about my estimate, and I wonder if I shouldn't have rocked the wheel. I'll check back in a few hours, but it seems clear that there's a new "pressure vent" for any surplus I poured in :blink:

The gearbox oil also seemed a tad lower than it seemed to be last time, but it's so damn hard to see anything in there — I could just see the surface level peering in, so I'm presuming it's about right (seems to correspond with Graham's estimate of 5mm under the rim.

In any case, the bike will not do much more than 100km before entering the dealer's workshop!

A local pal mentioned taking his in for an oil leak further rearwards. Apparently he'll also have a 'radial shaft seal' replaced (translation of the term his dealer used) — is that term applicable to the seal on the side of the wheel? Is there any other place oil passing the entry shaft seal can come out, apart from at the central brake line clip?

 

[Penis Rotor]

I pulled the CARC off today. As Pete noted, it is rediculously easy! About 5-10 ml of oil pooling in the swing arm and over the anterior surface of the CARC seal. No evidence of oil further up the swing arm so I'm assuming that it's not a gearbox seal and the problem is restricted to the CARC.

There were some fine metal slivers attached to the CARC drain plug (is it magnetic?) which is a major worry. I'm assuming the grease spray off the universal joint is normal?

Anyway, it will be boxed up and shipped to Pete on Tuesday.

Regards

Got stuck into Rob's CARC today and found that like Bill's bike it had managed to loosen the pinion nut and then stripped the threads on the nut allowing excessive end float in the pinion.

Now normally this would be a fairly sudden death event but it seems as though Rob has a bit more mechanical sympathy than Bill( :lol: ) and caught it early as there is NO discernable damage to the crownwheel teeth and from what I can see of the pinion teeth, (Hard to get a good look unless you completely strip the thing which I'm unwilling to do in this case as I don't know if there are any 'Sacrificial' pieces that are unobtainable and that would mean a new CARC. Big $$$$$).

AH-HA! I can hear you saying. If parts aren't available how do you plan to repair it? Well, the nice thing is that in traditional Guzzi 'Tight as a fishes arse' way they haven't actually designed a NEW retaining nut for the pinion. The nut is exactly the same peg nit and uses exactly the same lock-washer as is used on poxy old Tontis to hold the crank sprocket for the timing chain on to the end of the crank!!! Bingo! New nut, (The threads on the pinion are fine, it's very hard.) new lock washer, (The original lock washer was missing it's inner securing tab. Whether this was torn off in service or simply the washer was broken to start off with and Guiseppe used it anyway nobody knows!) a goodly splooge of 'You're never coming off again you bastard' Loctite 277, tighten the piss out of it, replace the front seal and reassemble after a good tub in the parts cleaner.

Damn sight cheaper than a new CARC

Might be worth getting the shop to check yours Rene? I've only heard of this happening to Norges. So either there was a run of CARCs for Norges assembled by a drunken fuckwit or Norges are all riden my hopeless nongs :lol:

Pete

 

[RJVB]

Thanks Pete, exactly the kind of reassuring bit of news I could do with right now

Seriously, can you or someone else post some pictures, a sketch or whatever might help me explain what and how to look for and how to address it if required? I'm not familiar enough with CARC pr0n ... and I'll have to translate to french ...

 

[Penis Rotor]

Before you get too complacent I've decided that something IS seriously wrong. The loadings on non-preloaded bearings re very different. I can't see non preloaded bearings being the *Norm* in this application. Because we, (Anybody outside the factory.) don't have any kind of info on what resides within the CARC per-se I'm in a real connundrum. There is no damage visible to the CW&P. But at the same time I CAN'T believe that the whole unit depends for its preload on two tangs on a lock-washer, especially as NO form of liquid locking agent appears to be used in the assembley ex-factory.

I won't go into details but yet but while I believe the bearings SHOULD have preload spacing but I don't know for sure. I can't at this point simply rebuild Rob's CARC as it came because every fibre of my body says it's wrong. All I think I can do is take apart my 'Spare', which is, unfortunately, freshly re-sealed and 'Perfect' and see if it has any preload spacers. I, and few others, have probably been in this far to one before.

Ethically it puts me in a real dilema. The easy option would be to tell Rob he needs a new CARC. But his bike, although low mileage, is out of warranty. That's shit. But what if I rebuild it and set it up like I think it should be set up and then it fails catastrophically? It could cost me everything I've earned in a lifetime.

I gotta pull my 'Spare' apart? Yes? Or am I being a 'Touchy-Feely' softcoque and just go for the jugular???

Pete

 

[RJVB]

Don't worry Pete, I know damn well you'd have no ground for telling me something is wrong in my bike. Sorry if my pun above suggested that.

What model year are we talking about? Bill's is a 2006, mine is too (crossing my fingers! ), wtb Rob's?

If you're not sure about the repair to Rob's CARC you made, I think indeed your best option would be to "dissect" your spare, and see what that teaches you (and through you, the community).

The alternative would be, of course, that you sell/give the spare to Rob, and take his CARC to apart. If I understand correctly, we have no way of knowing if there should be preload spacers, so pulling a single, supposedly correctly-built CARC apart isn't going to confirm anything. Knowledge about the presence of any sacrificial parts can also be obtained by opening a failed CARC.

I suppose it'd also be interesting to know how Piaggio would handle this kind of failure so quickly. I'm pretty confident that in France or the UK one could argue a hidden vice on a part that can reasonably be expected to last much longer than 1800km or (hopefully) even my 40k km, ESPECIALLY if it's a 4000€ part! Australia surely has something similar?

 

[RJVB]

PS: are we talking about the ring nut (2) and stop ring (1) on page CHAS 10 of the 2008 workshop manual?

 

[RJVB]

Re-reading Bob's original post: the metal slivers he found on the drain plug are probably due to the pinion nut coming lose and stripping itself?