Parting with 2012 Stelvio NTX

[Luma46]

The BMW final drive failure is a topic beaten to death on all BMW sites. In many cases it is just a seal ring seeping oil, which can lead to crown bearing failure. People who pay attention usually spot or identify it in time to prevent any excessive damage. Definitely the seal and bearing replacement are much more frequent than they should, considering the BMW reputation for reliability and considering the cost of their bikes.
Some people argue that considering the huge volume of bikes the BMW makes, and pretty much all the larger ones are single sided swingarm, the FD failures are statistically insignificant. Hard to say, I did around 70k kms combined on GS and RT without a single problem. Sure, it is a worry, but considering the enjoyment I have riding the opposed twin beemers, I decided to live with it.

 

[fatal]

It strikes me that modern BMWs are not as reliable or as well made as the older models. The 1200 series have been plagued with rear drive failures of varying degrees, and fuel pump controller failure is very common.

Over the years I have owned and ridden many BMWs and much prefer the earlier stuff (I also own a 1990 R100gs)
I owned a 2002 R1150gs for six years it was faultless over that time and 30,000+ miles. Despite many test rides on the GS1200s and the 1200RT, and much to the frustration of the salesman at my local BMW shop I could not find much to like about these later models. When the time came to replace my GS1150 I bought a 2009 Stelvio, it was very similar in character to the GS1150, but IMHO very different to the more recent 1200GS, this is a view shared by many 1150 owners, who originally swapped their GS1150s for the 1200 then regretted the change, some trading back to an 1150

The more modern BMWs seem to have had the 'character 'engineered out of them IMHO, they feel lighter, but also flimsier to me. I have two mates who also swapped to Stelvios after owning GS1150s for several years as they felt the newer 1200 BMWs were lacking a 'certain something', be that character or feel, it's hard to explain.

 

[WayneOrwig]

In many cases it is just a seal ring seeping oil, which can lead to crown bearing failure.

Actually, you have that backwards. The bearing starts to fail and then the seal leaks. Replace the bearing and seal when you see any sign of a leak, and you are usually good.

 

[Luma46]

Interesting observations and comments by ‘fatal’. I did not have an opportunity to ride any pre-R1200 models, so I cannot make any qualified comments. Comparing my riding experience on 12GS vs. Stelvio NTX, I can definitely say that Guzzi is more “rough and tough” bike and maybe this is why some past 1000GS and 1150GS owners are switching to Stelvio instead to 1200GS.
However it is the “roughness” of Stelvio, its noisy valvetrain, vibrations, rather firm suspension, overheating engine (and FD) that was not in tune with my taste. I think that Stelvio is (or pretends to be) more true adventure oriented bike, while GS is more of a touring bike with offroad capability. In fact, being close to 67, I do not think that I will ever buy another large enduro in future. I will stick with the touring comfort of the RT and I might buy myself a small 250 dual purpose as a “fishing” bike. BTW, there is quite a crop of these small dual purpose bikes on the market now , and I think it is a good thing.

 

[GTM®]

I was elected to be part of the Press Fleet break-in on the then new '05 1200GS back in '03. The bikes were housed at BMW's Tech Center in Ontario, CA. The requirement: 3000 miles on 19 bikes in ten days with ten riders. On the first day (of ten), we could only put 8 miles @<40 mph on each; rear wheels pulled, and swing arm/final drives inspected, a few disassembled. The next day, we could do only 40 miles at highway speeds, and the same process was done. With eight remaining days to log the remaining 2952 miles (369 miles/day x 2 bikes = ~738 mi days), many of the bikes ran out of fuel because of highly inaccurate fuel gauges. A few also stopped running and had to be towed back. Some were ridden the entire time with the check engine light on. This whole ordeal certainly soured me on their reputation, as I had a great deal of experience with airheads and an early oilheads.
If you're looking at the RT, you owe yourself a ride on the Norge 8V. It's leaps better of a motorcycle IMO.
Yes, I too am big fan of smaller displacement "trail bikes" as well. Amongst a handful of others, I have a CRF230L. The new 250L is quite nice, which I may own down the road. My monster is a '10 Husky 510.

 

[ChuckH]

Actually, you have that backwards. The bearing starts to fail and then the seal leaks. Replace the bearing and seal when you see any sign of a leak, and you are usually good.

I agree. This is what happened to my '94 K1100LT at 45K miles a few years ago. I was headed to the "Sun Your Buns Rally" in Venice, FL with a riding friend. On I-75 near Sarasota the bike began to feel "squirrelly" in the rear end. Concerned about a tire failure I pulled over and stopped. As I walked around the rear of the bike looking for a deflated tire the gear oil from the rear drive bubbled out past the rear seal.

Bob's BMW from Sarasota picked me up and repaired the rear drive in one day. The large bearing had failed and the resulting internal damage required many other internal parts to be replaced. Interestingly enough, they had all of the necessary parts to repair/rebuild the rear drive in stock. Cost was $1000. BMWNA dove for cover when asked for assistance with the failure, either parts and/or labor.

That was my last Beemer. I won't go back.

 

[Luma46]

Well, in spite of the all the FD horror stories, which undoubtedly are all true, there must be something special about the BMW bikes, because people wouldn't buy them in such a huge numbers and for so much money... B)

And BTW Todd, that Honda CRF230L you mentioned was one of my top choices, now I am pondering the new CRF250L.

 

[GTM®]

Well, in spite of the all the FD horror stories, which undoubtedly are all true, there must be something special about the BMW bikes, because people wouldn't buy them in such a huge numbers and for so much money... And BTW Todd, that Honda CRF230L you mentioned was one of my top choices, now I am pondering the new CRF250L.

I don't want to go over the top sounding like I'm bashing them, but a HUGE amount of people will flock to anything that wears a BMW badge, and open their wallets accordingly. The new S1000RR is quite a handful and seems to stay together just fine. I've owned BMW M's in the past, and would consider them again.
The new 250L is 2x the 230L in size and related. I'd consider it the next step up, not a direct replacement. I'll probably never get rid of the 230. It's a fun little toy to have around.

 

[leafman60]

Wow, I haven’t visited this site in quite a while and only just now read this thread. I have a few things to say about the topic of Stelvio v GS. Sorry for the length.

First of all, I am about as strong a proponent of the Guzzi brand in general and the Stelvio model in particular as anyone. I helped a long-time friend buy one of the first Stelvio models when they were first imported into the US and I purchased an NTX when they first arrived last year. I posted a review that's still around someplace. I have 3 Moto Guzzi bikes.

On top of that, I am also, I guess you'd say, a BMW man. I have 4 of them now and one is a 1200GS. Ive owned 4 GS models and I do a lot of off-road running.

I am saying these things not to brag about the bikes I have but to give some idea of my direct experience with both brands.

As far as the originator of this thread saying he is selling his NTX in favor of a BMW GS, I can understand it. I'm not saying I agree with it for me but I can accept that someone would do that.

I think I said in my Stelvo review that the BMW GS is a more-refined machine than the Guzzi. It is significantly smoother running, has better controls and switchgear, and a host of added features not offered by Guzzi.

I prefer the NTX, however. It is dramatically much better in off-road conditions than any of the GS models I've owned, most particularly the huge and top-heavy Adventure that I had. On-road the Guzzi is a tad faster than the GS and sportier handling. The Stelvio feels lighter than the GS. I also like the visceral appeal of the Guzzi. I like a little engine feel in my machinery. ( I'm also a long-time Harley rider and continue to enjoy a Shovelhead I bought 35 years ago.)

I am also not fond of sissy-bikes with electronic controls for suspension and all those gadgets. Sorry for the "sissy" reference. Devil made me say that. It felt good too.

The Stelvio is louder, it shakes, it has too much heat from the left cylinder, it's a little more crude than the BMW but that's what I like.

I can easily see why someone with a different perspective would prefer the BMW and I would never ridicule them or try to convince them to like what I like. Good lord.

I even have friends with Gold Wings. I just … well, nevermind. Devil coming around again.

Now, problems. I've had two problems with my Stelvio. I was stung by the much-publicized aux light short-out and popping the main fuse that caused me to be stranded. I knew about the problem and had worked on it but there was a misunderstanding of where the damn fuse was located. I know all that now. I also had one of my sparkplug caps go bad and cause a cylinder to misfire. These are not major issues and I hope my problems are worked-out from now on.

Now, the BMW. Those pictures posted earlier are inappropriate and do not reflect the problems associated with BMW’s.

Shown there are unusual incidents. I’m sure such catastrophic, isolated occurrences could be shown with any brand. We do not have to resort to that sort of stuff to make a point about BMW issues which are legion.

Most of the BMW problems that I can think of affect models from about year model 2000 and up. First and foremost is the final drive failure issue. But there is much, much more.

ABS pump failures, electronic security system failures that leave your bike stranded, fuel pump controller issues, brake reservoir issues, switchgear failures, ECU problems, CANBUS wiring complications and many, many more come to mind. I hate to say it but BMW is the absolute, absolute most problem-prone motorcycle brand on the market. I hate to say it.

If anyone thinks these issues are minimal and isolated and simply blown out of proportion on the internet, they should regularly attend the national and regional BMW rallies as I do. Mix and mingle with The Faithful and you will see that all the issues I enumerated are much too widespread to be acceptable happenstance.

Not long ago, at a national BMW rally, BMW sent a PR man, Mr. Larry Kuykendall, to give a rare appearance. He held a seminar at 8 am one morning and it was packed. He went through the expected promo talk about how good BMW was and how they wanted to enforce a premium image etc.

When he opened up for some questions, I was first up and brought up the final drive failure issue and he responded that they knew nothing about such an issue. I took the mic back and asked everyone of the 300-400 people there to raise their hands if they’d ever had a final drive failure. Seriously, about half the room raised their hands ! You could hear a loud rustle of all those Aerostich cordura sleeves rising in unison. Lol. No other questions were accepted and the session was quickly ended.

Anyway, these problems are real. I’ve had several of them plague me. I’ve been stranded more than once on a new BMW model. It may happen again too.

Let me try to clear up the final drive issue. There are two problems.

First and foremost is the main crown or hub bearing failure. As it fails, the metal bearing cage disintegrates and cuts the final drive oil seal to pieces causing the final drive oil to quickly blow out. As bad as this sounds, in many cases, a new bearing and seal will fix the problem if caught soon enough. If you are in the middle of nowhere, however, this can ruin a nice trip. I always carry a pack of spare parts on my BMWs. It includes the final drive bearing and seal. I carry the tools and I know how to fix it.

By the way, Guzzi uses the same bearing in the CARC drive unless they’ve recently changed it. I remember when they introduced the CARC and I discovered this. I was very concerned but, aside from a few initial problems, Guzzi has not been experiencing final drive issues that I know about.

The second BMW final drive issue that gets confused with the bearing failure issue relates to the oil seal alone. BMW does not a have a vent on the final drive unit. As it heats up, significant pressure builds up inside. In some cases, this pressure causes oil to blow by the oil seal onto the ground.

BMW has addressed this problem by reducing the amount of oil recommended to fill the final drive. This increases the air cavity in the final drive and reduces the overall heat pressure inside that causes the blow-by leak.

These final drive issues became serious about year model 2000 with the 1100-1150 series. Then, the final drive was completely re-designed in 05 with introduction of the 1200 series and the “see-through” axle.

Originally, these final drives did not include a drain plug and were said to be permanently oil filled. Although BMW never acknowledged any final drive failure issue, they hinted that anything that went wrong would surely be the fault of improper service by the owners. Well, the final drive issues became worse with the 1200 series than with the prior series.

I’m not sure if they’ve worked the issues out now or not. Apparently, from all my contacts, the problems seem to possibly have been an assembly or engineering error that allowed improper shimming of the bearing.

Enough. There are many, many other things. I think the thing with the germans is that they like to cram all sorts of gadgets and technological designs onto their products. They like to answer a lot of questions that nobody is asking. They like to fix a lot of things that aren’t broken.

The more complicated things you add to a piece of machinery, the more things you have that can go wrong. That’s what scares me about the latest new water-cooled BMW bikes that feature many new designs and features.

Does all this mean that all BMW’s have problems ? No. I know people with over 100,000 miles on their bikes with no final drive or other problems. However, the likelihood of encountering some issue with a BMW is, I think, greater than with any other brand. There’s just more things there to give you problems.

I like the bikes. They have a wonderful suspension and the bikes perform very well. My R1200S is the finest sport bike I’ve ever ridden. My advice on having a BMW is this. Be sure to keep it in some sort of warranty coverage and then enjoy the bike.

So, back to the original post. I wish the original poster well. I understand his preference for the BMW. It is a very refined and polished machine. I hope he is in the group of many BMW riders who have no problems. I do advise keeping it in warranty and carrying a few critical spare parts on long trips just in case.

If BMW gets their quality control better, I may have another new one in the future.

 

[vivo]

Nice post Leafman, well informed and a good read.

Vivo

 

[Bill Hagan]

****

I am also not fond of sissy-bikes with electronic controls for suspension and all those gadgets. Sorry for the "sissy" reference. Devil made me say that. It felt good too.

****

You could hear a loud rustle of all those Aerostich cordura sleeves rising in unison.

****

That is really funny. :lol:

I have always been drawn to beemers and very much so to the R1200S. But, the real reason I have shied from them -- well, aside from the ... erm ... beemerists are a bit too OC and AR even for me! -- is what I have viewed as corporate and owner arrogance that is almost breathtaking.

Oh, well; they won't miss me. Gotta run ...

Best,

Bill

 

[GTM®]

Nice post Leafman, well informed and a good read.

Agreed, thanks for posting. My brain carries similar details and much much more, but my A.D.D. mind and fingers only allow it when I'm paid to write.

 

[Luma46]

Great job 'Leafman60', one of the best and most qualified comments on BMWs I have read. BTW, I used to have a 12GS, I am now on 1200RT. As for FD, same thing.

 

[Penis Rotor]

David, the were failures on early CARC bike bevel boxes for the same reasons. Bearing failure. There was a world wide recall. The problem though was that the factory originally bought in some super-cheap bearings made by people with bones through their noses with only 17 balls per race and really crappy cage. Since this was changed to a new bearing, same spec and number but made in a real bearing factory in a country whe your co-workers sometimes double as lunch the only failures I've seen have been from water intrusion.

As for the famed BMW reliability a few years ago a mate bought a V11 LeMans. He visited Bungendore one morning and went to the Cafe where all the GS riders in Canberra congregate after their 40Km weekend 'Ride'. One of these nongs came rushing up as we were chatting and started gushing about how beautiful the bike was and how he'd realy like to have one. John just looked at home and said "Well, why don't you buy one?" His reply was that he really needed the BMW reliability, (For his weekly 40Km jaunt one assumes. His bike had obviously never seen dirt and only had 5,000 odd Km on it!). What was staggering was that in the very next breath he went on to tell us how he'd had to have the rear drive replaced three, THREE, times under warranty. I'm afraid we laughed. He was upset and stalked off in high dudgeon. Tough, he was a typical BMW plank and deserved it.

Pete

 

[leafman60]

Watch out with that "typical BMW plank" stuff ! I'm a BMW rider too ! Lol, that kinda thing can work both ways.

I've found them to be a pretty nice bunch, overall. Hey, every group has their fanatics and cranks. Ahem ... PETE ....

 

[Penis Rotor]

I've never claimed to be normal Grumpy, intolerant of idiots, one eyed and willing to swim against the tide? Yup!

'Normal'? Not so much.......

Pete

 

[rhip]

I've currently got two BMW's and two Guzzi's in my garage. The Beemers are a '77 RS and a '98 650 - both great bikes, although the RS will need to go for the new Stelvio. Leafman has set out the situation as lucidly as possible - the new BMWs are very nice bikes - I wish the Stelvio felt as light and limber as the newer GS's I have ridden. However good those bikes are, they leave me totally cold. Like the UJM's of old, they seem like appliances - good Lord, we are riding motorcycles, aren't we? I've been at a lot of BMW rally's and I also loved his comment about the rustle of those Aerostich sleeves as the hands went up.

That said, and despite all the problems with their current models, I can understand why the original poster is sticking with his RT - they are still damn fine rides, and, after seeing the new GS at the International show, I think this bike will be a much better effort. But, just looking at the photos of the GS and the Stelvio confirms that I made the right choice - for me.

Also agree with his comments on the 250-size dualsports. I remember when 250's ruled, and they still might give us the most enjoyable riding experience...the old saw about riding a slow bike fast.

 

[Oaktree]

I just submitted my experience of BMW final drive failure to the NHTSA. Three failures in 150,000 miles. What gets me is lack of acknowledgement of the issue by BMW. It's really unacceptable. There are a lot of motorcycle manufacturers who have shaft drives, and BMW is the only one that I hear of with frequent, ongoing failures.

The latest model BMWs seem to have more and more whiz-bang gadgetry and new, innovative design. I'm more utilitarian when it comes to my daily transportation, so my perspective is that the more complicated it is, the more likely it will fail. The true test of innovative design is if it is still works after 30 years. Good designs still work if they're maintained. Better designs still work if they're just not abused. The best designs take a beating, are neglected, and still work after 30 years or more. I love the cast iron skillets and Old Hickory knives I inherited from my grandmother. They're still as functional and durable as they were 30 years ago... no 'new' non-stick coating to flake off, no 'ever sharp' edge that can't be re-sharpened. They just work.

$0.02

 

[canuck1969]

I just submitted my experience of BMW final drive failure to the NHTSA. Three failures in 150,000 miles. What gets me is lack of acknowledgement of the issue by BMW. It's really unacceptable. There are a lot of motorcycle manufacturers who have shaft drives, and BMW is the only one that I hear of with frequent, ongoing failures.

The latest model BMWs seem to have more and more whiz-bang gadgetry and new, innovative design. I'm more utilitarian when it comes to my daily transportation, so my perspective is that the more complicated it is, the more likely it will fail. The true test of innovative design is if it is still works after 30 years. Good designs still work if they're maintained. Better designs still work if they're just not abused. The best designs take a beating, are neglected, and still work after 30 years or more. I love the cast iron skillets and Old Hickory knives I inherited from my grandmother. They're still as functional and durable as they were 30 years ago... no 'new' non-stick coating to flake off, no 'ever sharp' edge that can't be re-sharpened. They just work.

$0.02

Fully agree. That is why I loved my KLR 650 so much. Hated to sell it but the Stelvio NTX was calling. The bike was pretty much bullet proof. Single cylinder, carb, chain drive. Put 50,000KM on in 1.5 years riding out to Utah, down to Tennessee, the entire Blue Ridge Parkway and up to James Bay. Not a hickup the whole time, and if there was, easy to fix on the road. All that out of a $6000 bike. You would think a $20,000+ bike would give you a little bit more confidence. My motto has always been "Keep it Simple".

To me the Stelvio NTX is the MG's version of the KLR. Relatively simple, pretty reliable and can, for the most part, be roadside maintained. Yes, she has her hickups, but trust the bike to get where I want to go....as long as I keep her simple.

 

[leafman60]

Be careful not to lionize the KLR too much. They have a fatal flaw with the camchain tensioner that will and does leave many riders stranded. BTDT

Any mechanical thing can have problems but well-known and oft-experienced problems should be addressed by the mfg.

I just finished reading the book by Glen Heggstad who rode a KLR all through central and south america. Guess what ? His tensioner went out on him too.