steering damper for 1200 sport pros and contras

[Kuzya]

after getting a first wobble/slapper on the exit from 1-st gear turn seriously considered a damper, before was brought to the idea that with a damper it is much more likely to catch a low side in case of rear wheel power-slide, which I do actually get more often than a wobble.
any ideas from profis, taking into account a geometry of particular case with 1200 sport?
thanks in advance!
Alex

 

[GTM®]

You are still running stock suspension?

 

[Kuzya]

You are still running stock suspension?

I'm afraid yes
is it that bad? with my 84 kg feels not too bad, but I may have no idea how should it feel if it were good - not too much experience, only second season for me. changed to MG from the K1200GT BMW (first bike for me ever) which was a kind of elephant shot from the cannon in terms of handling.
I did not even play too much with suspension settings sofar, have to run the rear more or less soft - we have rather bad roads with much bumps and harder settings simply shake everything out from me.
How would you set the suspension for a rider of 84 kg and 185 tall, keeping comfort in mind? I'd give your advised settings a try.

Thanks! Alex

 

[GTM®]

At 84 kgs, you're ~6.8 kgs over the designed load specs of the rear shock. If 84 isn't with gear, then make it ~13.6 kgs over. A few have replaced just the rear spring, but if you read up on the Breva 1100 rear shock thread by Graham in NZ, you will see that the internals of the shock are substandard, as is the spring. There are a few posts in this section about rear shock options.
The best value for your money is the HyperPro 460 rear shock @~US$589 + shipping, and I offer more expensive options as well of course. The fork springs as delivered should be upgraded as well, and a few have gone as far as custom valving and springs (using Öhlins internals, which I can offer as a service). It's an investment, but it completely transforms the motorbike if you like to ride hard.
Happy to give you more direction on your reply, or direct e-mail.

 

[Will]

The best value for your money is the HyperPro 460 rear shock @~US$589 + shipping, and I offer more expensive options as well of course. The fork springs as delivered should be upgraded as well, and a few have gone as far as custom valving and springs (using Öhlins internals, which I can offer as a service).

Interesting.....do you have any recommendations for upgrades to the Griso shock and/or forks?

 

[Kuzya]

At 84 kgs, you're ~6.8 kgs over the designed load specs of the rear shock. If 84 isn't with gear, then make it ~13.6 kgs over. A few have replaced just the rear spring, but if you read up on the Breva 1100 rear shock thread by Graham in NZ, you will see that the internals of the shock are substandard, as is the spring. There are a few posts in this section about rear shock options.
The best value for your money is the HyperPro 460 rear shock @~US$589 + shipping, and I offer more expensive options as well of course. The fork springs as delivered should be upgraded as well, and a few have gone as far as custom valving and springs (using Öhlins internals, which I can offer as a service). It's an investment, but it completely transforms the motorbike if you like to ride hard.
Happy to give you more direction on your reply, or direct e-mail.

Thanks Todd!
my biggest problem is a country I live in,lovely Ukraine. it is not having a single person with an idea what to do with MG in terms of maintenance, and it is extremely complicated to get something from abroad (had to pay ~$6500 only for customs clearance for importing a used bike from DE). and it has poor roads, with hard suspension it hurts on the back.
So, being dependent on my own home-workshop and skills I rather trend to act as "newer touch a working system" in terms of tuning etc. Only the simplest things I change (stepper/snorkel etc).
Maybe some day I'll be brave enough to change suspension, but rather next winter. Do you believe it is possible to do any reasonable settings to a stock one? (you are right, 84 kg is a naked weight, with gear 90+)
And back to the topic, having your first answer, do I understand it correctly that you'd rather mean the 1200 Sport does not need a steering damper, but the possible wobbles can be eliminated by a better suspension?
Thanks again!
BR
Alex

 

[GuzziMoto]

In my opinion a steering damper is a band-aid for poor set up.
I don't know of a modern Guzzi that "needs" a steering damper because of geometry that is too aggressive.
But if you like the slower, heavier feel of a steering damper then by all means fit one up.
I would work on set up.
Ideally you would throw some money at it buying cool parts like what Todd sells, a nice rear shock with the correct spring rate and get the forks re-valved and install a set of the correct rate springs.
If you can't do that then you may be able to get a set of progressive springs for the forks. Or you can cut a couple coils out of the fork springs and replace the amount you cut out with a solid piece of spacer. And you can do the same type of thing at the back or even use a spring rubber type device to shorten the effective length of the spring wire to increase the spring rate. A coil spring is really a straight spring wrapped in a coil. The diameter and the length of it determine the rate. If you shorten the length you increase the rate.
Just food for thought. You gotta do what you can do.
All that is not as good an idea as upgrading the stock suspension to quality pieces. The Breva and Sport are marshmallows stock.

 

[Mi_ka]

Whoa! A spirited Guzzista in Ukraine!
The world has changed indeed!

 

[GTM®]

Thanks Todd!
my biggest problem is a country I live in,lovely Ukraine.
Do you believe it is possible to do any reasonable settings to a stock one? (you are right, 84 kg is a naked weight, with gear 90+)
And back to the topic, having your first answer, do I understand it correctly that you'd rather mean the 1200 Sport does not need a steering damper, but the possible wobbles can be eliminated by a better suspension?

My pleasure. You can try to set up the rear shock for ~40mm sag (35mm would be ideal on smoother roads), and make the front match. How to do this is outlined ->HERE<-click.
Since you have poor roads, tell me where the compression and rebound adjustments are on the forks, and rebound only on the rear shock (everything measured in rotations or clicks).
As GuzziMoto notes (and what I was implying) that it is all about proper set-up and the geometry, in order to have a wobble-free ride.
Need more?

 

[Kuzya]

Whoa! A spirited Guzzista in Ukraine!
The world has changed indeed!

a broken-in MG won my heart against a new r1200r with 24m warranty and profi-workshop 400m away from me, pricely comparable. now I make the bike-dept manager @ BMW go mad, when I sometimes visit the dealer and he has to tell me BMW is better. but I see his eyes telling me truth

 

[Kuzya]

Thanks Todd!
my biggest problem is a country I live in,lovely Ukraine.
Do you believe it is possible to do any reasonable settings to a stock one? (you are right, 84 kg is a naked weight, with gear 90+)
And back to the topic, having your first answer, do I understand it correctly that you'd rather mean the 1200 Sport does not need a steering damper, but the possible wobbles can be eliminated by a better suspension?

My pleasure. You can try to set up the rear shock for ~40mm sag (35mm would be ideal on smoother roads), and make the front match. How to do this is outlined ->HERE<-click.
Since you have poor roads, tell me where the compression and rebound adjustments are on the forks, and rebound only on the rear shock (everything measured in rotations or clicks).
As GuzziMoto notes (and what I was implying) that it is all about proper set-up and the geometry, in order to have a wobble-free ride.
Need more?

thanks again! a last two:
sag is clear, will adjust with a preload. it is told everywhere, if you change pre-load you must accordingly change rebound (compression too?). being not experienced enough to make rebound/compression correctly with a butt-sensor, may(should) I assume there is a linear relation preload-to-rebound(compression) setting? I mean, I know the factory settings in clicks, after pre-loading everything to a desired sag I can see a difference to the preload setting from factory, and would apply the same difference to the rebound? the above is applicable to the rear, as in front I have no idea about preload scale.

how do I adjust preload in front? there is no hydraulic clickable stuff, should I just turn the both nuts in the top of the fork (the bigger ones, not the c/r screws)? how do I make sure both springs are set equally? first unload fully as long the nut rotates? there is no single word in the manual about front preload adjustment...

 

[john zibell]

For the front, turn them in fully (max preload). Then back out 6 or 7 turns.

 

[Kuzya]

For the front, turn them in fully (max preload). Then back out 6 or 7 turns.

as I slowly begin to understand, there is no externally accessible preload setting possibility for the fork... strange layout, being able to adjust compression/rebound, but not being able to correct sag at first..

 

[GuzziMoto]

Some forks have external preload adjustments. Others you have to partially dis-assemble to change the preload. But it is possible and your bike will ride better as a result.
One important thing to remember, adding or removing preload does not change the rate of the spring. Adding preload will not make the spring stiffer. Unless you add so much preload that there is no longer any free sag (the bike does not compress the suspension any under its own weight) adding preload does not make the ride stiffer. What it does do is change the ride height of the vehicle. Unless you remove coils from the spring and replace them with solid lengths of spacer the spring rate does not change. Anything you do to shorten the effective length of the wire that the spring is made of will increase the rate of the spring. That is how spring rubbers work.
Anyway, setting preload is important as it sets the ride height of the bike. Since adding preload does not change the rate of the spring there is no set ratio of adding preload and rebound dampening. You may need more rebound, but that is not from preload.

 

[Zecis]

So just reading through this post....
I have the Hyperpro front and rear springs. The rear is oh so much better than the stock. The front just does not appear to adjust. I put a couple of cable ties around the fork legs, and no matter how I adjust the forks they still compress by around 3.5ins (9cms).

Could it be the dealer has fitted the front springs incorrectly? They have now had the bike twice for checking and say everything is OK, though one adjuster still clicks, the other doesn't anymore :unsure:

Some have suggested increasing the viscosity of the oil - or adding more oil (I used the oil supplied with the Hyperpro kit). That said I am not sur what oil came with the kit, as it went to the dealer with the Hyperpro kit

Any ideas???

Thanks
Adam

 

[GuzziMoto]

Whoops, should have added that if you switch to a progressive spring like the HyperPro fork springs then preload DOES effect spring rate, which is part of the reason some of us stay away from them.
Once you go to progressive fork springs preload becomes a more complicated thing.
I prefer to get the correct rate springs then a one size fits all progressive spring, it is more effort but worth it.
Not sure what you meant by "they still compress by around 3.5ins (9 cms)"
Are you talking about free sag, race sag, or how far the forks compress while you are riding around?
Does your bike have external preload adjusters? As mentioned preload is very important if/when you switch to progressive springs.
If some of your dampening adjusters no longer click, that is something I would bring up with the mechanic who did the work.
First thing I would do is confirm whether you are dealing with a preload issue or a dampening issue.

 

[Kuzya]

Some forks have external preload adjustments. Others you have to partially dis-assemble to change the preload. But it is possible and your bike will ride better as a result.
One important thing to remember, adding or removing preload does not change the rate of the spring. Adding preload will not make the spring stiffer. Unless you add so much preload that there is no longer any free sag (the bike does not compress the suspension any under its own weight) adding preload does not make the ride stiffer. What it does do is change the ride height of the vehicle. Unless you remove coils from the spring and replace them with solid lengths of spacer the spring rate does not change. Anything you do to shorten the effective length of the wire that the spring is made of will increase the rate of the spring. That is how spring rubbers work.
Anyway, setting preload is important as it sets the ride height of the bike. Since adding preload does not change the rate of the spring there is no set ratio of adding preload and rebound dampening. You may need more rebound, but that is not from preload.

"preload has no effect on the rate" is valid more for forks, in the rear because of progressive linkage arm to frame it should have an effect, kinda wrong but still a way to get the sag with a price of effective travel left, isn't it?
this would also explain to me a missing preload adjuster for the fork... there is enough clearance to not have a need to increase it if loaded with passenger/luggage.
in the front it has to have a very limited effect on static sag. if the spring would not stiffen when compressed, even with the non-progressive rate, it would fully compress if the load enough to start compression would once be applied. or do I get it wrong?

but getting to the initial question, let us assume we are not talking about particular bike like 1200 Sport. if there was a bike with a perfectly tuned suspension, slightly willing to wobble a little from time to time, but be as light-handling one as a 12S, and more often than wobble it would catch a light rear wheel slider, what would you consider a bigger danger: -occasional small wobbles; - or a risk of low-side in case it would be equipped with a steering damper which would kill the quick intuitive handling support during rear wheel side-slider?
pure curiosity...

 

[GuzziMoto]

Preload with a straight rate spring does not change spring rate.
In the rear, where you typically have a rising rate linkage of some sort, ride height will effect the perceived or effective spring rate within the curve of the linkage. Preload should be set to achieve a free sag ( the amount the bike sags from full extended under its own weight, no rider) around 5-10% of total travel and a race sag ( the amount the suspension compresses from full extension with the rider on the bike ) of around 25%. Those numbers are not cast in stone and some people like more, some like less. If you have progressive springs you may need to adjust those numbers to achieve acceptable ride quality. If your forks do not have an external adjuster then you need to dis-assemble them to adjust preload. Springs will compress so much for a given weight applied, for example a straight rate 1.0 Kg/mm spring will compress 1mm for every Kg applied to it. 10 Kg of weight applied would compress it 10 mm. It does not matter whether the spring has not been compressed at all or if it already has 50 Kg of weight on it. If you are talking about a rear spring with a raising rate linkage then yes, the amount the bike moves will not be the same as how much the spring moves. But most raising rate linkages start around 1:1 and then increase through the travel range.
Progressive springs do not work like that and since I do not like them I will leave it at that.
Once you have your preload (ride height) set correctly it then becomes a question of adjusting your dampening to achieve proper ride quality.
As to whether to run a damper or not, I can restate my opinion that a steering damper is a band-aid for poor suspension set up and that my wife and I own three Guzzi's (a red frame V11, a 4v Daytona, and a Griso) and none of them have or need a steering damper.
Do what you want.

 

[Zecis]

Whoops, should have added that if you switch to a progressive spring like the HyperPro fork springs then preload DOES effect spring rate, which is part of the reason some of us stay away from them.
Once you go to progressive fork springs preload becomes a more complicated thing.
I prefer to get the correct rate springs then a one size fits all progressive spring, it is more effort but worth it.
Not sure what you meant by "they still compress by around 3.5ins (9 cms)"
Are you talking about free sag, race sag, or how far the forks compress while you are riding around?
Does your bike have external preload adjusters? As mentioned preload is very important if/when you switch to progressive springs.
If some of your dampening adjusters no longer click, that is something I would bring up with the mechanic who did the work.
First thing I would do is confirm whether you are dealing with a preload issue or a dampening issue.

The 9cms is just riding around.... with no massive breaking or extreme potholes. As for the adjusters the bike has been back to him twice, and even though he is an official agent, he can't seem to fix it. I think I may have to find a company that specialise in these things next.

I will read (and try to understand) all the posts since my original - then decide what to do.

Thanks Guys
Adam