The word on Ping

[vivo]

It's been a while since I've checked the topic....has there been a conclusion as to why the Griso 1100 and I suppose the 8v Ping? My 1100 didn't but now with 6000 miles...p i n g.



Vivo

 

[double.d]

I'm trying a few different things at the moment, none working.

just got back from a 400klm ride with 80% of it in mountain twisties, and it pinged a lot, always between 4500-5000rpm which makes it annoying cause that's where the good spot is.

 

[Spaceclam]

The combustion chamber design was made 40 years ago, for leaded fuel.

Todd's stuff helps a lot, and it's clearly related to ambient air temp. Some bikes seem worse than others. Those who claim theirs dont ping at all, are just old and deaf.

I just stopped screwing with it and put 100 octane in it when the weather gets warm. It's expensive, but there is no headache.

Usually, after about 75 degrees, it needs some 100. After 85, i just take the car, cause it's got AC.

I love my bike, but knowing what i know now, i would NEVER buy another MG.

 

[guzzi jon]

Those who claim theirs dont ping at all, are just old and deaf.

That hurt Andrew..... :shock:

 

[Penis Rotor]

Urm. My 1100 never pinged unless the temperture was in the 90's F and I was abusing it by lugging it about.

I'm wondering if perhaps there was a bunch of corrupt ECU's that cause the problem, but if yours has had the full monty done on it you'd think it would of been fixed??? HAving ridden yours I know it does ping. Thing is not all of 'em do, and I canassure you Andrew that it gets at least as hot here as it does in So-Cal in summer.

Pete

 

[guzzi jon]

No way it gets as hot in bungendore as it does here, we gots farenheit, you boys are stuck with centigrade

Hope your vacation was fun Pete!

Cheers,
Jon

 

[YBFAST]

Those who claim theirs dont ping at all, are just old and deaf.

:lol: :lol: Yep... that's me (kinda fat too) :lol: :lol:

However.... despite the ribbing I take from my son ( pretty competent bike mechanic w/ good hearing) about how it sounds (and the way I ride etc etc) he will back me up in stating my Griso does not have a pinging problem. Never has, riding from the upper 20's to upper 90's f.
over 26,000 m without an issue
Just lucky I guess

 

[guzzi jon]

I never knew my griso pinged until I swapped bikes with Andrew, his bike with Todd's full boat system was much faster and smoother, then we swapped back and he told me my griso pinged too. I am deaf in one ear and wear ear plugs, never heard the sucker ping, but I also never heard Andrews ping, guess its good to be an old deaf fart...

 

[Steak]

Old and deaf works for me. I can't here mine ping. I can hear everything else, valve clatter, buzzing vibes from 3500 to 4000 under load, but no pinging…

Deafness is bliss I guess.

 

[vivo]

Ohhhh so no one has isolated and cured the situation fully? That kind of sucks... My bike doesn't ping unless I am heavy on throttle. I've ridden it at temps over 100 and it's not worse at that temp.

So either I didn't ride as I do now when I first got the bike OR something is different now that I have a few miles on it? I am not really sure? I will take it to Ferracci and see what he says on the subject... I may also be tempted to do Todds full system ... Thing is I like the bike and the ping is easy to ride around on my bike... either more revs or less handfull of throttle but it shouldn't ping in the first place...

I think of my Griso as a more laid back bike anyway. I bought a Kawasaki Concours14 to use as my sport touring bike and the Griso is for solo and more local use... that's why I kept the 1100. It's less Sport bike and more similar to a modern classic bike, more power than the Thruxton, cheaper and more accessable than the new Norton Commando which I desperately would like to own...

Andrew I am surprised to hear you say given what you know you would never buy another Guzzi... Andrew did Todds set up eliminate most of the ping without 100 octane? I wouldn't know where to get the stuff in NJ?

vivo

 

[Spaceclam]

Pete,
when you rode it, i already had about a gallon and a half of 100 octane in the tank already. I had filled up that morning.

Todd's system helped quite a bit. It did not fix the problem, but it fixed lots of other issues, and HELPED the pinging.

Before the PCV and stuff, i did a track day. It was 100*F outside. ON the freeway ride home, in that weather running premium, i could not accelerate AT ALL without downshifting. No amount of small throttle input worked. IT would just ping violently.

When i asked our wonderful local mechanic, his answer was "it doesn't ping".

After the system, it still pings a little in all gears, running premium only. It definately pings on the freeway, but it's better above 5k. In 6th gear it starts to ping at about 50% throttle or so (i have my throttle marked out, so i can see where it is, according to the PCV readout).

Below 65 degrees, i dont really need much, if any 100 octane. IT only pings if i make it.
With a gallon of 100 octane, it's mostly fine, in comfortable weather.
above 85*, it needs about a gallon and a half.
Above 100 it needs almost pure 100.

It's heat related. I can isolate the problem to heat.

Why MG needed to wait until it was so far behind that it could never catch up to redo the cylinder geometry (in the form of the 8v) i will never know. Im sure a 2v with a modern combustion chamber would kick ass.

No piston dome=less spark advance+less surface on combustion chamber. Less spark advance+less surface= way less heat. Way less heat + less spark advance+higher compression = more power, no ping.

DUH.

 

[guzzi jon]

Clamster,
how different are the combustion chambers on the G11 vs the V11 and cali's, I've put 75,000 miles on them with dynolinked PCIII's and could not make them ping on a hot day going up hill rolling on the throttle in high gear at 3K, is there something different with the new combustion chamber or was the older design and freedom to tune the reason no pingning? What do you think?
Cheers,
Jon

 

[Spaceclam]

Other than the dual plug, there doesn't seem to be any difference.

Jon is right though. Less peolpe seem to complain about their v11s pinging. Maybe the advance is so extreme that the natural burn spreads to the hotspots before they ignite themselves? Cam profile? IDK.

Todd says his jackal pings a bit, perhaps he could chime in

 

[double.d]

Before PCV - Autotune - Remap, no pinging and liver spots on headers = running hot.

After PCV - Autotune - Remap, pinging without liver spots on headers = not running hot.

I have been riding here during winter at temps of 30F and with wind chill factor it's getting close to zero, so i would say it was not a heat related issue.

 

[GTM®]

Todd says his jackal pings a bit, perhaps he could chime in

My 100k+ mile V11S-powered Jackal only pings when doing 200+mile/day on the track in 100º+F temps. I can get any of the new bikes to ping if the temps are high enough, with tall gear big throttle openings... but common sense says to down-shift.

Before PCV - Autotune - Remap, no pinging and liver spots on headers = running hot.
After PCV - Autotune - Remap, pinging without liver spots on headers = not running hot.
I have been riding here during winter at temps of 30F and with wind chill factor it's getting close to zero, so i would say it was not a heat related issue.

Hmmm... I don't a ton of experience with lower ambient air temps here, but the factory does give a fair amount of advance in lower temps. If you're interested in a revision, let me know direct.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Logic would seem to dictate dropping the ignition back a degree or two. It's a bit hard to do a direct comparison with the V11 motors of course because with the Griso/Breva/Norge etc. being twin plugged they will be running less advance than the earlier motor. How's the system on the 8V motor doing? did you change the ig. timing on that at all?

I'm definitely a bit deaf but I'm also able to detect detonation. I could feel it on Andrews bike alright and even with ear-plugs in it was audible to me but my 1100 which was essentially stock apart from the Lavizzari pipes never detonated unless I really opened the throttle at sub 2,000 rpm in a high gear in hot weather. If it was a firmware problem would your magic box be able to detect that Todd?

BTW. Did you get to pinch the V7C patch off somebody? If not I've got a warranty ECU arriving shortly. the owner doesn't need it immediately so I could probably upload the patch onto it and then post it to you so you could pinch it out of it if you like/ As long as it comes back quick-smart.

Pete

 

[Spaceclam]

That's very strange. I can't get mine to ping in that kind of weather.

Once upon a time, it dropped to 38 degrees one night. Freezing my ass off on my way home, i decided to open it wide up from 3k rpm, in 6th gear, on the freeway. At the time i was running straight 91.

Not a sound. Shot off like a rocket.

IT behaves this way up until about 65 degrees.

I wonder why the behavior varies so much? I know mine is in direct relation to heat, but perhaps the difference in behavior traces back to variations in programming/ign computer afterall, just like roper predicted?

Is somebody sending a g11 computer to be reflashed sometime soon, who's bike doesn't ping much? Or does somebody have one that has already been reflashed, and has a vstd?

If so, and if it's okay, maybe as a definitive test, could I try your reflashed computer in my bike, and see what happens?

Perhaps others can do this swap to. IF there's a problem, maybe we can get some recalls!

Once upon a time, Pete was generous enough to loan me an ECU, but we were trying to chase the popping.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Andrew, my 'Spare' ECU is still hanging around in So-Cal. I have no idea where it is but my guess is its either with Todd or Jon. Regardless, it can be seen as an *experimental* unit and if Todd or anyone else wants to use it as a test mule I'm more than happy.

I have no bone to pick or axe to grind on this. I just want lots of good running Guzzis on the road. I fear that Todd thinks that because of my stated reservations about the PCV/AT, WRT the 8V motor he thinks I'm somehow biased against him and his product. Nothing could be further from the truth. Unlike other people who I have wasted lots of time and money on Todd stands behind his product completely and this I respect enormously.

I do have a variety of reasons to believe that relying on exhaust gas analysis alone to determine the AFR is fraught with danger on this motor but having said that I still believe that the PCV/AT is the best available option for people wanting optimum performance on their machines and it certainly works for the old pushrod motors. The biggest problem *We* as the people who are working with these machines face is that we are told so little by the factory or Magnetti Marelli about how their systems actually work. That shits me to tears. but also........ And I hope Todd doesn't mind me saying this here......

It is NOT obligatory to get the PCV/AT package. I'm sure that improvements can be made in both performance and fueling. In basically 'Stock' trim the new 8V's, especially those with the A8 motor, run pretty damn well out of the box. I bought the full kit off Todd but ended up not using it on EITHER of my two Grisos. This was not because I thought the product was bad or wrong, simply because I find my bikes work just fine FOR ME as they are at the moment. I do find that the constant promotion of the fact that you *need* to add another $1500 of kit to the bike before it is even acceptable counter-productive. Guzziteh IS a site that will be found by prospective new owners. If I read that my new bike was going to be a shitter unless I paid another big $ sum I'd be scared off! That means less Guzzis sold and less work for Todd and anyone else in the Biz-nizz!

The can run GREAT if they are tuned and serviced RIGHT. If you want MORE? Then the PCV/AT option is, in the English speaking world, the ONLY way to go!!!!

I hope that is clear enough and doesn't cause ructions? I'm sick and tired of having my posts misinterpreted and read wrong. I DO hope that everybody who reads this will be willing to LISTEN and not start finger-pointing!!!

Bollocks! Need a beer!!!!!

Pete

 

[Mi_ka]

I wonder why the behavior varies so much? I know mine is in direct relation to heat, but perhaps the difference in behavior traces back to variations in programming/ign computer afterall, just like roper predicted?

Could the temperature sensor be out of spec? These thermistor type sensors are not the most accurate neither linear so a small offset at low temperatures can be a big deviation on higher ones.
So the ECU could be fooled into wrong advance settings.
The lack of a knock sensor is a major design mistake in my opinion. I cannot understand why they went into the lean territories without one.

 

[guzzi jon]

Andrew, my 'Spare' ECU is still hanging around in So-Cal. I have no idea where it is but my guess is its either with Todd or Jon. Regardless, it can be seen as an *experimental* unit and if Todd or anyone else wants to use it as a test mule I'm more than happy.


Pete

Pete, that ECU has already been reflashed and is shortly to be installed in my Griso, Todd is going to a bit of other things to as well as the full boat setup. I will give a full report when he's done and I put a few miles on it