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Clam-Pack Battery packs (formerly CARBON SPEED)

Spaceclam

Spaceclam

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
472
Location
Chatsworth, CA
Well guys, the results are in.

The cells do NOT deliver to their advertised specfications, and will not start our bikes. In fact, they dont come close. According to the spec sheet, the voltage should remain well high enough through the start so as to prevent the ECU from disabling the bike, nearly regardless of the state of charge (about 1/3 charge should be enough based upon the voltage curve).

Tests show, however, that the voltages drop far more and far faster under load. Based upon the high discharge pulse data, the voltage should drop to about 2.9 volts per cell upon inrush, and then creep back to about 3vpc during cranking. Instead, it instantly drops to about 2.4 (which puts it just under the ECU's low limit)

I tried two different configurations, (3 cells in parallel, x4 in series, as well as 4 cells series, 3x paralell) just to make sure the tabs werent the weak spot, but no luck.

These are sufficient to keep the bike running, however, as i was able to jump it and it kept running, and the voltages stayed healthy.

I will be contacting the supplier tomorrow and requesting a full refund for the unused cells, but im still out some money.

I am pretty bummed, guys. But, now we know. Perhaps ill give the carbon speed guys a try, afterall.

-Clam
 

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Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Yo Clammer,

I like the idea of smaller batttery. How many amps does this thing put out? Will it crank against stupidly high compression?

Maybe 2 x 8packs...

Alex
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Looks interesting, but selling batteries without listing amps (unless I missed it) makes me nervous. From what I am seeing (elsewhere as they have no real info) it is promising but would likely need to be oversized to reliably start a big twin.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Some of the German magazines made a sharp test of those batteries recently. See if I can find it one of these days.
Far as I remember, they worked excellent.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Im waiting on a return email (i asked the same question) but it does have a 90 day warranty period (right on par with the batteries we buy anyway) but if the 4s pack is being put up against a 7ah battery, id imagine that the 4s2p pack should be about 14ah. we will see

Also, group buy price is 199 shipped, minimum of 10.

All those interested, please send me an email.

Thanks
-Andrew
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

a fully charged lithium cell should be about 3.6 volts/cell, that's 14.4 volts fully charged for a pack of 4 series. If the output of the tender is less than this, (and it should be, about 13.8) then yes.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

I just ordered some electronics parts. Im going to rig up an ammeter, and see what kind of cranking amps our modern bikes pull on startup.

However, i have found a source for LiFP cells, which allows me to make a higher capacity, higher discharge 12c pack for the same price, since im cutting out the middleman, carbon-speed. But we will see. This experiment will show everything. Ill keep yall posted.

If the cranking amps these bikes pull are reasonable, i might consider making the packs myself, and yes, i do have experience doing this. Currently, it looks like i can build a higher capacity, higher discharge, 12c pack for about the same amount of money. (about 150 cranking amps) For those interested, i'd offer the same warranty as the carbon-speed guys, if this becomes an option.

I say higher discharge, because even though i dont know the CCA yet of the carbon speed packs, its a 4s2p pack of 2100 mah batteries, and i seriously doubt they have a 50amp max like the cells i am looking at now, given their size. I have yet to see cells exceeding 20c max discharge rates. our lead acids do about 15c.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

I'll be anxiously awaiting your results... one for my Jack-all and one for my Spine racer (4 cell).
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

If these could lie on a shelf waiting for my current battery to die, I'd be in for one too — and I can make some propaganda on a couple of forums here too should you want me too.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

UPDATE:
the guys at carbon-speed say 240 CCA. This sounds a little optimistic, but perhaps the specs i have found on my cells are a little conservative, since that's a 30 second surge.

So my measurement will determine what's necessary, cause i'd like a little more capacity than 5ah. if i assembled the pack, it would be 7.5ah.

So assuming 150 CCA is enough, would you rather see more capacity or more cranking amps?
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

IIRC, the battery on the Norge and Griso (and probably the other recent big blocks) is rated 18Ah ...
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

yes, it is. You could start your car with that battery. It's pretty serious overkill.

But if the bike draws 80 amps (as measured by Wayne Orwig on the WG forum), then 150 should be PLENTY. If that's the case, i have a quantity quote on the cells i want, and i can offer a 12 cell, 7.5ah pack weighing about 2.25 lbs. I feel this is a better choice of action than the carbon-speed packs, because of the multiple start demands that street bikes incur, that race bikes dont. The carbon-speed packs are 5.2ah, compared to 7.5, (Spaceclam spec) with a weight pentalty of about 1/2 lb over the CS packs

I could offer the pack for $170 shipped, with all cells balanced, over $30 less than the CS packs.

I only need 2 more interested parties to achieve this price.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Come to think of it, John Zibell posted an interesting question here, concerning the number of recharge cycles one might expect, and how they'll fail.

If I remember a discussion with Todd correctly, our AGM batteries hardly charge under about 14ºC. In my understanding, that makes a healthy margin (in Ah) a good thing. How's that with these lithium cells?
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

lithium batteries charge better at low temps than SLA or AGMs. Of course they hold less energy at those temps, but all batteries do that, not just lithiums. That being said, it will have much less actual capacity, so if you live where it gets really really cold and you ride in those temps, i'd be a little more careful.

Lithiums DO NOT suffer from the sudden failure syndrome that AGM or SLA batteries do. in those types of cells, the plates eventually decompose, and the decomposed "plate dust" accumulates at the bottom of the cell. while the decomposition of the plates causes them to get weaker over time, it's the accumulation at the bottom which eventually shorts the cell, hence the sudden failure. Either the dust makes contact with the plates, or it doesnt.

LiFeP batteries are dry cells, so this isnt a problem

at the price i get for the cells, if anyone wants to add some cells to their pack to increase the capacity, it's $50 more to hit 10ah.

Prices are as follows, provided the interest level is sufficient.

12 cell: 180 cranking amps, 7.5 ah capacity. 2.2 lbs, $170 shipped within US, international pays shipping cost.
8 cell: 120 cranking amps, 5 ah capacity. 1.5 lbs, $120 shipped within US, international pays shipping cost.
4 cell: 60 cranking amps, 2.5 ah capacity, .75 lbs. $80 shipped within US, international pays shipping cost.

These cranking numbers are probably a little conservative, but i can make no guarantees past these figures. The spec sheet does not have an amp rating for 3 second bursts, only 10.

Even 5 amp hours is enough for many starts on one charge, but i personally like the saftey factor with the extra cranking amps. An experiment (as soon as the parts arrive) will determine how many cranking amps are actually needed.

Each cell is about the size of a C-cell, at 1" diameter x 2.5" tall. I have yet to determine the ideal cell layout, but if i just made a brick of cells, a 12 cell would be as thick as the original battery, 2 inches narrower, and 4.5 inches shorter. an 8 cell pack would be 2/3 the thickness, and a 4 cell would be 1/3 the thickness.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Hey Clam, I'd be in for a couple. They would make space under the seat for the PCV which would be nice.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Clam: what do you call "really cold", as someone living in California?

I ride through winter, and even last Sunday night already I saw the snowflake on the dash during at least a third of my 95km ride back home. I do NOT have a garage or shed, so in order to charge a battery from the wall, it has to come out of the bike.

Could you add dimensions and weight to your table above please, for easy/future reference? Shipping is the same across the globe — doubt that, no?
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Updates added at the top. Forgot about international shipping, again. Im bad at that for some reason. :roll:

I dont have temperature data for these cells specifically, but by careful, i mean dont start it 8 times on a single charge, and get the bigger pack if you live where its real cold.

By real cold, i mean if you have to be real careful about how you ride due to temperature, it's real cold.

Although we have seen temps as low as mid 30s here in Los angeles at times, it commonly gets down into the mid 50s and i dont think starting should be a problem. I've used lithium base batteries in these temps with great success, though not this composition specifically. These are supposed to be even more thermally stable.

also, im pretty sure i already mentioned this but i want to make it clear.

YOU CAN NOT OVER DISCHARGE THESE CELLS. If you let the voltage drop below 9 volts while static, your battery is permanently toast, so dont forget to take your keys with you. These batteries would take MANY years of sitting to reach that level (at 1% loss per year, compared to lead acid's 20% per month) so that's not an issue. But DO NOT leave the light on and walk away.
 
Re: Carbon Speed Batteries

Thanks for the updates. Since you're so bad at it, I'm almost tempted to point out that international shipping is not a 'from-the-border' extension one adds to national shipping, but you know that ;)

Do we know how much the different models draw when off, to have an estimate how long one can leave the bike unattended with the battery attached?
 
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