Yes, it is similar (only a lot bigger) to the chain drive hub/wheel interfaces on the 1972 Yamaha 100 and 125 enduros and 1972 Suzuki TS185 we had on the farm when I was growing up.
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rear wheel failure
- Thread starter Calvin Cran
- Start date
Howdy All,
I have read through this entire thread and it brought to mind some issues I had to deal with back in the 70's with BMW's. Yes, BMW's. The shop I worked at was a dealer for BMW, Moto Guzzi, Munch, Laverda and Ducati. When the BMW R90's came out, they sold like hotcakes. Many were set up with BMW bags, Windjammer fairings, Wixom trunks and any other thing that some of the owners could bolt on, a la Harley's. We began to see rear spoke failures on some of those heavily loaded bikes, along with complaints from their owners! The BMW spoke were exactly like the Guzzi spokes, except they were straight with a swaged head on one end in the hub, and a nipple on the other at the rim. The failure mode was the swaged head would pop off, and then several more would fail in short order. After many consultations with Butler-Smith, we were instructed to weigh the bikes! BMW published a gross vehicle weight limit in the owners manual, and after weighing several of the problem bikes, we found that the bikes were over gross, with no rider, his wife and camping gear loaded. And some of these riders were not small people either. As a result, Butler -Smith, as usual, did not fix any of them under warranty. There was a lot of bad press because of that, and some of the owners went back to their Harley's. I don't know if Guzzi publishes a GVW for their bikes. I sincerely hope that Cal recovers completely, and has some luck with Piaggio et al. Just thought I would pass this info along.
I have read through this entire thread and it brought to mind some issues I had to deal with back in the 70's with BMW's. Yes, BMW's. The shop I worked at was a dealer for BMW, Moto Guzzi, Munch, Laverda and Ducati. When the BMW R90's came out, they sold like hotcakes. Many were set up with BMW bags, Windjammer fairings, Wixom trunks and any other thing that some of the owners could bolt on, a la Harley's. We began to see rear spoke failures on some of those heavily loaded bikes, along with complaints from their owners! The BMW spoke were exactly like the Guzzi spokes, except they were straight with a swaged head on one end in the hub, and a nipple on the other at the rim. The failure mode was the swaged head would pop off, and then several more would fail in short order. After many consultations with Butler-Smith, we were instructed to weigh the bikes! BMW published a gross vehicle weight limit in the owners manual, and after weighing several of the problem bikes, we found that the bikes were over gross, with no rider, his wife and camping gear loaded. And some of these riders were not small people either. As a result, Butler -Smith, as usual, did not fix any of them under warranty. There was a lot of bad press because of that, and some of the owners went back to their Harley's. I don't know if Guzzi publishes a GVW for their bikes. I sincerely hope that Cal recovers completely, and has some luck with Piaggio et al. Just thought I would pass this info along.
Wow, it's hard to imagine so many pieces being added that it surpasses the gross weight without a rider or such.
I have the same model as Cal (2021 V85TT Centenario). The GVW rating (on the VIN information plate) on my bike is 990 pounds or 449 kg (357 pounds or 162 kg front and 633 pounds or 287 kg rear). Therefore, I highly doubt that Cal's bike was overloaded.
Vagrant
GT Reference
Gerry, my 2020 v85 brake bolt was frozen in place on the first tire change. Naturally I just put a long pipe on the allen wrench and actually broke that hardened allen wrench. I put a torch on the back of the bolt and it broke free quickly. Lubed the crap out of it before reinserting.
What about your axle nut? Was it severely overtightened also? I talked to my dealer yesterday when I ordered a new axle nut (backordered, of course so no riding for a while). He said they find that once in a while, but not really common.
Armchair mechanic here:
Generally any specification has a certain amount of over engineering “built in” so a spec for something should not fail if 10,20,30 lbs over spec.
I was on the garage floor last night changing a tube on the rear Honda tire, I don’t think I could over stress the rim, but having it clamped in a industrial tire changer might be able to apply significantly more force than I…
Generally any specification has a certain amount of over engineering “built in” so a spec for something should not fail if 10,20,30 lbs over spec.
I was on the garage floor last night changing a tube on the rear Honda tire, I don’t think I could over stress the rim, but having it clamped in a industrial tire changer might be able to apply significantly more force than I…
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Yeah, it white eyed us too, but one bike in particular was owned by a former Harley rider who was also a welder. He fabricated ALL of the bag mounts, trunk mounts, ball hitch mount for a trailer etc. from 1/4" x 1" strap, and 3/8" bolts! That guy weighed about 260, and his wife was not far behind. He had some custom shocks made just to get the bike to ride semi- correctly. Add that ubiquitous Windjammer with lowers, radio, speakers, etc, and it was REALLY heavy. I really wish I had a picture. He was upset that he couldn't accelerate "briskly" from 55 mph when loaded in high gear!! The listed max weight for a 1974 R90S, with rider and baggage, is 881 Lbs, and the bike weighs 474 lbs wet! 406 lbs of useful load goes away real quick!
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Midnite
Cruisin' Guzzisti
Any news to report, Cal? I think about this failure every time I take my V85 out, and I’ve taken to visually inspecting my rear wheel every time I get her back home (and feeling each set of spokes, which at least makes me feel better about structural soundness). My mind keeps wandering back to the possibility that the shop that changed your tires may have over-tightened the spokes…
Hope all is well, and that you’re getting back to ‘normal’!
Hope all is well, and that you’re getting back to ‘normal’!
Calvin Cran
Tuned and Synch'ed
Not much to report, I have not seen the bike since the accident and the insurance company(Intact) is dragging their heels. I am close to being paid out for total loss. All fractures have healed100% but soft tissue injuries are on going. I was back on my V Strom for a couple rides last week first time in 10 weeks! I met with my friend and told him my story, when he got home on his 1989 R100GS he checked his spokes and low and behold he found 1 spoke missing a nipple and a grub screw!! Ive accepted my rear wheel failure was a 1 in a million and I am moving on and hope to ride to Tuktoyktuk next June .
glad to hear you're on the mend, but also! I'm also planning to ride to Tuktoyaktuk next summer. the road looks amazing, and the landscape so beautiful.
Oh ! Tuktoyktuk
Alaska not good enough for Y’a
Alaska not good enough for Y’a
Calvin Cran
Tuned and Synch'ed
LOL been to Dead horse and Inuvik back in 2014 on my F650GS. My plan was to be the first V85TT to Tuk but that did not work out! My friend from Spain is shipping his 1290 to Miami and riding up to meet me then Ill take the Strom 650 as I am not ready to get back on a V 85ttOh ! Tuktoyktuk
Alaska not good enough for Y’a
I have my bike back together. The new axle nut is still on backorder, but I was able to reuse the original for now. The threads were OK, but it has a plastic or nylon thread locking insert. I realized the threads were OK after carefully cleaning them. I had to grind down a 6-point impact socket (26 mm) to torque the axle nut to specification (the cheap 12-point socket I bought before slipped at about 2/3 or 3/4 of the recommended value). I applied synthetic grease to the axle and the caliper bracket bolt and torqued both to factory recommend specifications (100 N-m for the axle nut and 35 N-m for the caliper bracket bolt). That should make them easier to take off the next time.
I did not tighten any spokes because they all seemed to be about the same tension (based upon tuning fork sound). Temperature is cooler now and I rode about 350 miles (some off road) since I checked the spokes before. I looked at the spoke nipples, spokes, hub, and rim very carefully after getting the new tire mounted--no visible indication of stress or any other problems. The ABS tone ring and brake rotor must be removed on the left side and a circular cover plate must be removed on the right side to access the spoke nipples.
My conclusion is that I will check for loose spokes frequently (tuning fork method with bike on center stand) and visually inspect everything carefully whenever I remove the wheels. I plan to ride the bike normally and not worry too much about this anymore.
I did not tighten any spokes because they all seemed to be about the same tension (based upon tuning fork sound). Temperature is cooler now and I rode about 350 miles (some off road) since I checked the spokes before. I looked at the spoke nipples, spokes, hub, and rim very carefully after getting the new tire mounted--no visible indication of stress or any other problems. The ABS tone ring and brake rotor must be removed on the left side and a circular cover plate must be removed on the right side to access the spoke nipples.
My conclusion is that I will check for loose spokes frequently (tuning fork method with bike on center stand) and visually inspect everything carefully whenever I remove the wheels. I plan to ride the bike normally and not worry too much about this anymore.
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FWIW:
All torque values are always presumed to be on absolutely clean, dry, threads with no lubricant or chemical of any kind on the threads.
Anything on the threads, like anti-seize paste or grease, will cause a gigantic over torquing of the component.
I understand, however I don't want the caliper bracket bolt to seize in the aluminum swing arm or the steel axle to rust. They are both at much lower torque now than what the factory applied to them. They were dry originally and probably at least 250 lb-ft torque (based upon how long my pneumatic impact wrench had to hammer to get them loose).
No worries!
I just wanted to make that notation because with anything on the threads, they will be significantly way tighter than the indicated value on the torque wrench.
(I’ve seen bolts torn out of a block because this fact was unknown to them.)
Calvin Cran
Tuned and Synch'ed
those are great photos of where the spoke nipples are. The insurance company has transferred title of my bike to an online auction house. My friend says that no one is going to bid on a v85 located in Fort Simpson NWT( he is the town manager and deals with insurance all the time) and the auction house will after a while ask him to dispose of the bike. Maybe then we can take a closer look at the rear wheel.
Vagrant
GT Reference
That means you settled on a price then?
Calvin Cran
Tuned and Synch'ed
Sort of, I am within $600.00 of what I wanted, they said they would not pay for the lower MShock I put on the bike on day 1 before riding.
I protested and they are looking at the protest, I hope to be paid out this coming week...........Ive been saying that for a month now, Insurance companies just try to wear you out.