Bellagio engine oil level

[Mackers]

5 in 10 ...Pete I have to ask, is that how the Poms would say a straight 10w50 grade ?

Pete wasn't writing 5 in 10, he was writing SIN10 which is Penrite 10w-70 synthetic. I have read somewhere that the Aussie importers have okayed it instead of the AGIP.

When I bought my Breva 1100, the dealer used dino for the first 5000km to bed the engine in then synthetic. At 17,000km, she still throws out oil if I put in the correct amount!

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/motor-oil/sin/sin_engine_oil_10

 

[delburnman]

Ahhh..an oil thread at last! I get all lubed up at the mention of PenriteSin10!

I've been using the stuff exclusively for a year: just finished my first 20 litre drum. I'm no oil chemist but this stuff has a lovely colour and feel between the fingers! Specs from Penrite sound good (as they would). My Bellagio is smoother and quieter, no sign of anything ferrous on the magnetic plug,Internals of the motor as clean as the day it was made. Bike uses no oil between changes and oil comes out a rich golden colour. I think it does the job.

All of that means nothing I know. Spec sheet attached. Once upon a time I read somewhere that "Roper reccommends it", that swung me.

Don't know if is available to Yanks or Poms.

 

[Finebau]

5 in 10 ...Pete I have to ask, is that how the Poms would say a straight 10w50 grade ?

Pete wasn't writing 5 in 10, he was writing SIN10 which is Penrite 10w-70 synthetic. I have read somewhere that the Aussie importers have okayed it instead of the AGIP.

When I bought my Breva 1100, the dealer used dino for the first 5000km to bed the engine in then synthetic. At 17,000km, she still throws out oil if I put in the correct amount!

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/motor-oil/sin/sin_engine_oil_10

Ahhhh....Put it down to eye strain and a foggy pc terminal Mackers. :lol:

Thanks for the tip off tho' mate. :mrgreen:

 

[andrej]

I just found out the exact type of oil they put in my bike on last service (found the bill). Its a Shell Advance VSX4 15w-50 semi-synthetic.

Here is some data sheet I found about the oil http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...wxLGnNCmUO3HpYASQ&sig2=gLuKzxYP9CtBwxdBd_zaMg

Looks okay ?

 

[john zibell]

For the Belagio it is probably OK, but a fully synthetic will stand up to any heat issues better. Since the engine is very similar to the older Californias, the 15W-50 weight is OK in my opinion as well. If you are still running in the bike, the rings may seat a little quicker with the semi synthetic, but next change I'd go for fully synthetic.

 

[andrej]

I am at 4000km now (3000 since last oil change) and the oil still keeps dripping. Should I have the mechanic take the engine apart on the 5000km checkup and have him look at the piston rings to check weather they are all right ?

I do no think it is okay for me to leave a puddle of oil everywhere I park for more than 10 minutes. Basically just waiting for some policeman to notice and give me a nasty fine. Plugging the hose is no good since it gets filled in about 100 km`s just to leak from some higher spot which ends up in the rear wheel (plus the fender, rear shock, silencers ... etc) getting all messed up with the oil.

Basically I need to know weather it is something that I should wait for to get fixed by itself (and if so .... for how long? ) or something I should have the mechanic fix at all costs.

I love the Bellagio and would ride it to the end of the world and back but it is not really legal to drive around on a bike spitting oil all around the road :-(

 

[delburnman]

You are correct: Bellagio's shouldn't leave puddles of oil.

It's under guarantee, take it back and get it fixed. It is a safety issue, should get priority.

OR
Sell the bike to the chairman of BP...they like to leave puddles of oil everywhere tooooo! :mrgreen:

 

[Finebau]

5000 miles on mine and it's still leaking oil on a regular basis. In fact, i havent had so many oil stains and puddles on my garage floor since the late 60's when it was a natural occurence on old Brit iron of the era.

andrej, i really don't think it's a piston ring issue, other than these motors take a long time to bed in and loosen up.
But i do think it's a combination of crankcase pumping pressure and a slight over-fill of the sump.

I often use the performance of the motor to the max as this is where this short stroke engine is at it's best and that's why i enjoy the Bellagio. But i think this (ahem) ocassional hard use does increase the problem.

I did use to use a 6mm pan head screw as a bung and religiously drain it once a week into a jar as part of the running checks i.e. tyres/oil level/visuals/drain-off, but now i just leave it open and park it over a small tray.

my fueller Buell Lightning was the same but most guys re-routed the breathers from the airbox and into a catch can... ??

 

[andrej]

Well but is it normal ? Some other forum members mentioned they do not have any problems like this (Trepidiste) at all. I think he did not even fill the volume of the hose in the first few hundred miles. The other Bellagio that is in my country (there are just two) does not leak this way at all and never did. Mine filled the hose in the first 50 km I rode it and started leaking from the airbox.

I am not really concerned about leaving a puddle in the garage. I have a can for that too. Problem is that it is very easy to get a nasty environmental pollution fine when visiting countries like Austria or Switzerland. It would take a lot of persuading skill if a policeman saw the puddle next to my bike when i have it parked up in front of a bar in a country like that. Owner of such parking places would not be very happy to see it either. And there is no way I will be lugging around a can of oil with me to put under the bike everywhere I stop.

 

[Penis Rotor]

D'you want to see if one of my Tonti style baffle plates helps? It might?

Pete

 

[andrej]

D'you want to see if one of my Tonti style baffle plates helps? It might?

Pete

Sounds like a viable solution. It is likely that the Bellagio engines actually normally run in conditions that you would describe as hard riding on the standard displacement block (which the bellagio block has roots in). Do you think that it would be usable in the same form on the Bellagio as it is on other Tontis ? Do you still make them ? Is there any risk of causing any damage by using the plates ?

 

[Penis Rotor]

well, there's information from me. :lol:

One of the long standing problems with Guzzi motors has been windage. That is the fact that the spinning crank creates an enormous vortex of oil and air spinning around it. This leads to the case being filled up with a LOT of particulate matter and this sometimes can overwhelm the breather/condensor box's ability to condense the oil back into a 'Streamable' form that can be returned to the case.

Early, lower revving engines of a smaller capacity didn't exhibit the problem so much. By the time the motor was punched out to 948cc the problem was manifest. That is the reason that from the Mk III LeMans on ther sump was fitted with a spacer. Not as many think to allow the addition of more oil, but to move the oil away from the spinning crank so the cyclonic forces wouldn't pick it up so easily. Later Guzzis with the 'Filter in sump' like the Bellagio have a deeper sump casting removing the need for the spacer.

What the addition of one of my sloppage sheets does is just add a barrier between the crank and the oil in the sump, helping prevent the cyclone picking up oil. I DO NOT generally recommend them to Cali owners as, in most cases and with their overall gearing and the speed the engine usually runs at, they aren't neccessary. with a Bellagio though, although you have a smaller capacity and therefore less pumping action during the cycle they DO tend to get reved harder. (If you DON'T bounce your Bellagio off the revlimiter fairly frequently you're not riding it right!!!! :twisted: )

Install it. Mark the stick to just below the plate as you do so and use that as your 'Full' mark and you may well cure the problem. No promises, but if it doesn't cure it I'll refund your money when you send it back. How's that?

pete

 

[andrej]

Sorry I just edited my post with what I googled up. Check up please

 

[andrej]

Install it. Mark the stick to just below the plate as you do so and use that as your 'Full' mark and you may well cure the problem. No promises, but if it doesn't cure it I'll refund your money when you send it back. How's that?
pete

Sounds good. Do you have any simple manual about how to mount it ? Or at least some picture of how it actually looks and what points it attaches to ?

The one thing I am most concerned about. Could I break anything by using it ? I mean ... does the crank not rely on it being dumped in the oil a little in order to be lubricated properly or something like that ?

 

[Finebau]

(If you DON'T bounce your Bellagio off the revlimiter fairly frequently you're not riding it right!!!! :twisted: )
pete

Quote of the new mllenium! (so far)

Y'know, i read that whole text Mr. Roper, and i was enthralled by your description of just wahat is going on down there in the engine room while you are up on the bridge wringing it's neck.

....I sat and reflected. popped a couple tinnies to clear my mind and thought. "wait-a-minute"...Hmmm, the maxxed out Harley motors used by Erik's finest are dry sump, but still chuck out the acid fog oil snot into the airbox.

Then, as i pondered on, generally burbling quietly into my drinking vessel....A distant memory struck me about the oil galleries on the crankshaft pressure feed that had two tiny holes pointing upwards to spray jets of oil under the piston crowns to help cool them.

For my life i couldn't tell you what engine that was on, but i'm just an 'end user' and wondered if you may know where this methodology was ever used?

....'Nuff of that ponder now, but it certainly seems like the Bellagio owners who haven't experienced this particular problem perhaps should have settled for a nice 'swanky' 750 Cafe Classico. :mrgreen:

 

[andrej]

....'Nuff of that ponder now, but it certainly seems like the Bellagio owners who haven't experienced this particular problem perhaps should have settled for a nice 'swanky' 750 Cafe Classico. :mrgreen:

While it may be a little off topic it is a fact that the other Bellagio in my country, the one that supposedly did not ever leak oil, belongs to a girl. Do not want be flamed for generalizing female riders as less proficient but from my experience they are a lot less "power hungry". They also usually weight half of what I do so they do not really have to use that much of the higher rev range.

So far I have googled out quite a bit about Roper`s plate thingy. It seems like a pretty good idea and addresses exactly the issue we are having with the Bellagio. I sure will try it out if Pete can confirm that my engine will not explode because of using it and that it is indeed compatible with the sump used in the Bellagio. Want to jump the bandwagon and try it out too Finebau ?

 

[Penis Rotor]

[quote="andrej]
Sounds good. Do you have any simple manual about how to mount it ? Or at least some picture of how it actually looks and what points it attaches to ?

The one thing I am most concerned about. Could I break anything by using it ? I mean ... does the crank not rely on it being dumped in the oil a little in order to be lubricated properly or something like that ?[/quote]

Mounting is very simple. Just stick it in between the sump and block with a gasket on either side. It's obvious how the oil galleries line up. You run the oil just below the plate.

No, the crank doesn't get 'Dumped' into the oil for lubrication. Oil is fed through galleries to the mains and then through the crank to the big ends. After the oil has passed the mains it goes on through further galleries in the block to the cam bearings and then gets fed through the cam where it is sprayed out of jets onto all and sundry. There is massive oil spray from between the rods and the crank webs. The crank when it is spinning essentially looks like a great big dough-hook with streamers of oil cascading off everywhere. The plate helps prevent these streamers of oil splahing into the oil in the ump helping prevent frothing as well as offering another surface on which the oil cans stick and de-aerate before draining back to the sump.

Todd is running one of these on his Jackal, but Todd probably rides harder than most of us. As I said, for most Calis they aren't neccessary.

The purpose of oil in the engine is twofold. It lubricates, which it does NOT by being slippery, but by keeping the surfaces of the bearings and other engine parts separated, and it cools by taking away heat created by the internal friction in the oil. Oil is good at both these things. An oil/air amalgam is not, which is why helping de-aerate the oil is a good thing. The oil pump can also delivr a more effective flow if the oil is de-aerated and will be less prone to cavitation at high RPM.

Pete

 

[delburnman]

All this talk of dribbling Bellagios pains me somewhat. Mine doesn't leak and at each 10,000 k service has maybe 2 Tablespoons maximum of oil in the air cleaner duct.

The engines are supposedly built to a plan and should be all the same. I'm not a girl, I rev it occasionally too. I lean her into corners and all the other fun things one does with ones Bellagio. That's whay she's a Bellagio!

Peters description of the internals is so detailed it is almost pornographic ! Makes me want to add one of his sump plates just to be on the safe side.

Then the thought occured to me. :idea: ... is your Bellagio using the Shell oil? I'm happy with Penrite Sin 10, Full Synthetic. Maybe you are using the wrong brew? One that froths a tad more than the Sin10. Don't know what mine had in for the first 5000k's (I purchased second hand) but My spannerman Brad used the Shell Avance for the 5,000 and 10,000k service, after that I've used the Penrite at 5000 km intervals. There was a smidge more breather snot at those first two services. Maybe the Shell froths and bubbles ????

 

[Penis Rotor]

Some oils will present problems that others won't. Why? I dunno? I'm not a tribologist but I know I'd rather stick me squirter in a three jaw chuck and turn it down with a blunt hacksaw blade than run Castrol engine oil in any of my vehicles, that's just me though.

There are a number of reasons I use Penrite oils but I have NEVER experiences oil expulsion after the oil has 'Found it's level' with Penrite. So I keep using it and it's spec sheet far exceeds what is needed in most normally aspirated motors and easily meets those of motors running a turbocharger with stacked, floating, slipper bearings.

On the 8V motor the oil has to do a LOT of cooling, especially around the exhaust valve seats which are actually oil cooled by galleries running around them. A full synthetic far more resistant to heat degradation is vital in this sort of application if you want to avoild the build up of nasty, flow inhibiting, varnishes in the galleries.

The 8V motor also uses *true* oil jets to cool under the piston crowns. I've always been a bit flummoxed by this as things are happening VERY fast in there with a lot of pressure waves and vortices to deal with and the mass of the oil being delivered into this environment is small, but it has been common practice on diesels for years, so it obviously works, at least al lower engine speeds.

Use good oil.

Change it often.

!t's cheap insurance.

Pete

 

[delburnman]

It's all Froth and Bubble!

Hey Pete, I got lost for an hour reading up on your windage plate and other matters on the DK forum and the V11 forum. Fascinating stuff. I noticed on the V11 forum someone suggested you should write a book, I second that.
Haynes publish a respected manual that covers the early Guzzis: maybe you could put together a late model Guzzi Bible and get Haynes to publish it. I'd buy one ............. (even if your knowledge is freely available on the web.

I do occasionally get oil light flicker under heavy acceleration so your windage plate is high on my wish list. How much are they in Ausie Dollars??