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Modern "No Start" issue solution

Discussion in 'Chat & Tech Info' started by GT-Rx®, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. GT-Rx®

    GT-Rx® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Thanks to Patrick Hayes/iainw & Mike H @MPHCycles.com:

    [​IMG]

    The graphic above should explain the improvement.

    Look at the relay diagram which is item #36 above. That little "P" shaped circuit on the right, fed by pins 1 and 2, is the relay's internal operating electromagnet coil. Not much work there.

    Now look at the 'bridge' connection circuit fed by pins 3 an 5. When the electromagnet is energized, it pulls that "T" shaped device against the two internal connectors and bridges or 'makes' the connection. Pin 3 now feeds electrons out to your starter solenoid. The electrons come in via pin 5. But, that pin 5 source does several other things as well and has to pass through numerous connector blocks before getting here. We loose a little bit of power at every connector. Eventually, even though we still supply 12 volts to the solenoid, we no longer provide enough amperage to actually throw the heavy electromagnet in the solenoid. Thus, all we get is the 'click' of the relay itself.

    If we simply provide a direct circuit from the battery into pin 5, we haven't changed anything about the operation of the relay, only the source of electrons which we will feed to the solenoid.

    Tape, or a crimp dead-end cover to the wire harness. Whatever you prefer just to be sure it doesn't short to ground.

    This issue is well known and very well documented by many owners on this forum and others.
    After spending quite some time on a few of them recently I offer these suggestions;
    The CARC bikes have the same problem as the small blocks that exhibit this symptom, but a slightly different fix is possible.
    The basic issue is a voltage drop on the positive side, from battery to the starter relay. On the bikes I have been measuring, we see as much as a 4.0 volt loss. This obviously makes it hard for the relay deliver the amperage needed to engage the starter solenoid reliably.

    The small block needs a power supply relay added in to deliver full 12V to the starter relay supply side.


    This is simple enough to do by removing the orange wire from the starter relay socket, plugging it to the 85 terminal on the new relay. 86 goes to a GOOD ground. 30 goes to battery positive, 87 goes to the original starter relay in the hole where the orange wire was removed. What this does is use the stock wiring only to close the relay instead of supply the power for the load. This should also help eliminate the starter fuse blowing at random times.

    On the CARC bikes, we have seen a similar voltage drop in the circuit that feeds the ignition switch (yellow on these bikes). After making sure the plug for the ignition switch, battery terminals and chassis ground are clean and tight, there was still a drop of 2.2 volts by the time the juice gets to the starter relay. It seems there is a splice in the harness (in the area of the harness shown), where the lead from where the alternator is joined to the ignition switch circuit.

    This circuit is easily "supplemented" by an additional wire, paralleling the circuit from near the fuse box green/red wire to the bike side of the ignition switch connector. At this connector there is an inexplicable size drop in the wire. I dont have pics of the bike after the additional wiring is done for this one. Edit: Mike offers a plug-in jumper to handle this issue. Contact him direct at MPHCycles.com -- Todd

    guzzielec001.jpg

    guzzielec003.jpg

    guzzielec005.jpg

    guzzielec006.jpg

    It works for me, if you try it on your bike, use common sense regarding materials, routing, fusing etc. If this sounds like more than you are comfortable doing, than don't do it. Use the info to assist the Tech who does it for you.
     
    Android likes this.
  2. johnk

    johnk Just got it firing!

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    I did a similar thing to my V11 sport and it has solved the problems I had there as well.
    Unless everything was absolutely perfect I'd have intermittent starter operation issues.
    Since doing this about a year ago it's worked every time.

    johnk
     
  3. sign216

    sign216 High Miler

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Todd, thanks for the photos and instructions for the smallblock. This is a modification that I've been planning to do for some time, and it's good to get an different approach.

    Joe
     
  4. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    There's an explanation on the French forum about the starter fuse blowing. This is a 15A fuse, but IIRC it only protects the solenoid (plus a number of other things), and under normal functioning a 15A threshold is largely sufficient. A measured voltage drop is of course caused by a large current draw somewhere in the circuit, and (again IIRC) this can be caused by the solenoid not engaging quickly enough.

    Or was it on here that I read about that (can't seem to find the post on the french forum)??! :oops: :oops: :oops:
     
  5. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    You know, I had to do a similar wiring mod in the start relay feed on the V50, and on the SPIII. It seems Guzzi never learn.
    I'll do some checks on my Norge.
     
  6. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

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  7. baloches

    baloches Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    I've been having this intermittent issue, and have gone through Todd's wiring mod using Carl's great schematics.

    My take on it is that the green/red wire is the feed from the alternator back to the battery, and the lack of capacity at that connector and gauge reduction is limiting the ability to recharge the battery, which would seem to be the root of my problem, i.e. no-start at fuel stop after long idle time in traffic with autocomm, xm and gps, high beams etc...

    This has happened three times under same conditions, after a good wait the battery would recover enough power to overcome the ECU's low-volt threshold and the bike would fire right up. I have checked the obvious, such as condition of connectors, ground, battery etc.
    I have not load-tested my battery, it is possible that it is on it's way out, not having any reserve.

    I don't understand the idea that this circuit is improving current to the ignition switch and starter relay, aside from keeping the battery properly charged. Could anybody enlighten me? I have a good understanding of vehicle electrics, working on mobile equipment electrics on a daily basis.
     
  8. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Can anyone see a reason why the yellow feed to the start relay has to go via the ignition switch at all? It seems to me that the easiest cure (on my Norge at least) would be to remove the yellow wire connected to the relay and replace it with a direct connection to battery positive (though preferably via a 15 amp fuse).
    This is effectively the same as I did on the V50 and SPIII.

    Having said all that, I've just checked voltages on the Norge, and voltage loss from battery positive to the start relay (yellow wire) is 0.25V approx when the ignition is switched on, and 0.75V when actually starting.
    This should not cause a problem, and yet I have recently had the "click, no crank" situation, and had the fuse blow before that.
     
  9. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    This circuit is easily "supplemented" by an additional wire, paralleling the circuit from near the fuse box green/red wire to the bike side of the ignition switch connector. At this connector there is an inexplicable size drop in the wire.
    This is because the ignition switch harness comes that size, supplied by Zadi or whoever makes them.
    In my automotive experience it is very unusual to have the solenoid current going through the ignition switch. In fact I doubt if the switch is really designed to take 20A peak. They normally assume a relay will be used. I just wish I knew why Guzzi insist on doing it this way.
     
  10. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Dio mio.. :blink:
     
  11. sign216

    sign216 High Miler

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Patrick Hayes suggests an easlier solution:

     
  12. baloches

    baloches Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    I finally got around to fixing the Norge today. This is what I found: the green/red wire was failing at the three way molex connector and at the other extremity of this wire at the fuse holder. I figure this was preventing the alternator from charging the battery correctly, which was apparent especially at low speed associated with stop & go traffic.
    I removed the four fuse holders and replaced them with an 8 way fuseblock, eliminated the three way molex connector and connected the three wires associated with this connector to the new fuse block.

    After these repairs, the instrument panel voltmeter went from 12.2v to 13.3v

    Here are some pictures of the failed parts. I'll take some pics of the new fuse block install tomorrow.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Can someone wise on Guzzi make up a logical explanation on why these incredible shortcomings keep surfacing on brand new bikes?
    In the late '70s with the big strikes in Italy there where sabotage actions performed by the union workers in the automobile industry like putting sand in brand new engines at the assembly line etc
    Does Guzzi still employ poorly payed electrical designers of old age?
     
  14. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    To be fair that's the only picture of burned loose contacts I've seen to date. I'm not saying it's never happened before, but it's rare compared to the numbers of Guzzis on the road worldwide.

    Why they still insist on running solenoid current through the ignition switch is a mystery though.
    I suppose it's a case of "but we've always done it that way".
     
  15. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Please note, the picture by Patrick is not correct for the Breva/Norge/Stelvio/Griso. The wire to swap is the yellow one to pin 3 of the relay.
     
  16. WayneOrwig

    WayneOrwig GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Looks like dielectric grease oozing out the back.

    That is sure to destroy a good connection.
     
  17. baloches

    baloches Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Use of dielectric grease is just about as contentious an issue as hose clamps!

    I use it a lot, and was really surprised/disappointed to see the damage. Your comment had me wondering, so I did some searching and came up with the usual arguments on all kinds of forums until I came across this article published by Nye Lubricants.
    http://www.nyelubricants.com/pdf/connector_tech_overview.pdf

    Whatever the reason, the connector had crapped out and was preventing the alternator from keeping the battery charged when I was creeping along at low speed. Would this make sense to you?

    Cheers,
    Kai
     
  18. motobob

    motobob Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    I've had no issues on my 08 Norge until today, stopped for gas, get ready to leave and click, click then nothing. fuse is blown so replaced with spare and all is good. I get home and shut down and try to start up again and nothing but this time the fuse was still good . What I found was corrosion under the ground terminal, cleaned it up and could not get the problem to repeat so no need to alter the wiring yet but I was poking around and the relays on the Norge are not easily accessable from what I could see. How far down do you have to strip the bike to get decent access?
    Bob
     
  19. WayneOrwig

    WayneOrwig GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Easily.

    I used to use dielectric grease a LOT. Thought it was a good thing. I still use it on spark plug boots to help keep them waterproof.

    The problems are:
    1) Dielectric grease does nothing, zip, nada, to improve a connection. It may even be argued that it can trap water and dirt in the connector and harm it.
    2) It is a great insulator. It can potentially keep connections seperated.
    3) It is typically silicone grease based. Silicone grease outgases and over time turns to a powder. Have you noticed this? I've seen it. The powder can only act as an insulator. No good.
    4) The killer. As silicone out gasses, the silicone can form silcone dioxide on contacts, like relay contacts. Some switch manufacturers even state that a SEALED switch can be damaged by silicone lube nearby. So, if any connection near the dielectric grease is loose, you may get silicone dioxide formation and turn the connection/switch/relay into an insulator.
    5) There ARE lubes that help to seal the connector and act to keep the resistance of the connector low. Dielectric grease is not among those. Maybe that stuff you have the link to is. Avoid silicones.

    Search this material for 'silicon'.
    http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/appno ... ossary.pdf
    http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-d3c.pdf


    For me, I typically use Caig Deoxit on connectors. I studied it for a job that I was doing on scale load cells. The connector and wire resistance had to be stable and under 0.008 ohms to perform properly. We found that the Caig would protect the connector and actually lower the resistance with time as it worked at deoxidizing the connectors (these were tin plated).
     
  20. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Remove seat and RH upper side panel. You can then pull each relay on it's harness and rubber holder up enough to do whatever you want. The rubber holders fit onto a plastic spade, so they just pull off.
     

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