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A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issue.

Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

I have a few ideas but that's all. Tappet guide boring was one of them, poor radiusing of the tappets was another. The thing is I'm not willing to rule anything out until I've actually laid my hands on a set of failed components and had the bastard things analysed by somewhere like the Mint.

The main thing I am trying to push is that there isn't a design fault or endemic problem with the new top end. I just get a bit peeved at always having peaople almost assume that any Guzzi is going to be plagued by problems and it simply isn't the case as you know.

It just pisses me off that people almost want there to be something wrong. If they want to buy something with problems ex-factory too horrid even to think about I suggest they seek out an old Lilac. It even looks a bit like a Guzzi twin but is so horrible that all their dreams will come true!!!!!:laugh:

Pete
 
Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

pete roper wrote:
I have a few ideas but that's all. Tappet guide boring was one of them, poor radiusing of the tappets was another. The thing is I'm not willing to rule anything out until I've actually laid my hands on a set of failed components and had the bastard things analysed by somewhere like the Mint.

The main thing I am trying to push is that there isn't a design fault or endemic problem with the new top end. I just get a bit peeved at always having peaople almost assume that any Guzzi is going to be plagued by problems and it simply isn't the case as you know.

It just pisses me off that people almost want there to be something wrong. If they want to buy something with problems ex-factory too horrid even to think about I suggest they seek out an old Lilac. It even looks a bit like a Guzzi twin but is so horrible that all their dreams will come true!!!!!:laugh:

Pete
Click to expand...

Well, as you know, this isn't rocket science. It certainly doesn't sound like a lubrication problem..which is a *real* problem. Honda fought a top end lube problem on the early V4s (Saber/Magna) for literally years. Engineering change after change. To their credit they were replacing cams/lifters long after the warranty had expired..
FWIW, I think Guzzi realizes that *some* dealers can't be bothered to properly adjust valve clearances. My Norge was set at .011/.013 from the factory.:huh:
 
Dave just reminded me of what an insider told us during the 8V development: Namely that at that time (I think it was December 2006) that they were having a tough time getting the cams to last 15 minutes on the dyno. I'll dig deeper and see if I can learn what the cause was then and what the solution was.
 
Greg Field wrote:
Dave just reminded me of what an insider told us during the 8V development: Namely that at that time (I think it was December 2006) that they were having a tough time getting the cams to last 15 minutes on the dyno. I'll dig deeper and see if I can learn what the cause was then and what the solution was.
Click to expand...

Please do. That would give some useful pointers. It's interesting that the 'Old' Hi-Cam also had a propensity for damaging tappets. There are very few motors around that use the Hi-Cam architechture and rocker design that Guzzi does. I wonder if that has any relevance? Not saying it does, just tossing ideas out there. Any idea what the rocker ratio of the BMW oilhead motors is compared to that of the Nuovo Hi-Cam from Guzzi?

Pete
 
FWIW, I think Guzzi realizes that *some* dealers can't be bothered to properly adjust valve clearances. My Norge was set at .011/.013 from the factory

I really doubt there are many peeps on here who can tell the difference between 0.1mm and 0.11mm You would have to use a new feeler every time.
Who knows what 0.1mm is ?.......................
It's the thickness of a single human hair.
0.11/0.13 would make no difference at all.
If you want to measure the gaps put a DTI,(dial tesl indicator) gauge on them, more accurate than a feeler as everyones feel is different.

Guzzi has got a problem with them........get used to it.
 
Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

It's pretty easy to tell a 0.1mm difference, actually. That's about 0.004 inch. Anybody who can't discern to that level of resolution with a feeler gauge should leave his hands off of wrenches entirely.
 
Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

I'm getting closer to an answer. Apparently, one engineer working on the exploding cam problem had the solution and told them what to do, so the guy was demoted to designing scooter engines. He told 'em to f*ck off and quit. Eventually, the clowns-that-be realized said engineer was right, and adopted most of the guy's solution. I will try to talk to him and get the story.
 
Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

Greg Field wrote:
It's pretty easy to tell a 0.1mm difference, actually. That's about 0.004 inch. Anybody who can't discern to that level of resolution with a feeler gauge should leave his hands off of wrenches entirely.
Click to expand...

I believe he was suggesting that 0.01mm is hard to tell. You are right, if you can't tell 0.1mm you should not be adjusting valves. But for most people using feeler gauges an accuracy of 0.02mm is about the most your gonna get.
 
Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

Thankyou GuzziMoto
10 micron difference will be the difference between people's 'feel' of the gauge slipping through. If you set an exact 0.1mm gap it will be pretty hard to get the shim in. Setting a gap requires a pull on the shim, some people will determine a stronger pull than others.
 
Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

Hey, I'm a 'Merican. When I said .011/.013 I was talking thousanths. B) They were *plenty* loose from the factory. Clackity valves are happy valves..
 
Re:A bit more of a heads up on the 8V grenade issu

Hey chuck .011"/.013" thou now that is pretty big , but as you point out, wont do major damage to the followers.
I couldn't believe it when I was working over in New York a couple of years ago. I asked for some 6mm allen screws and was told they would be about a week on special order. lol.
 
Bad News,,,
especially for me!

Just got off the phone from my dealer. The left side of my 8v's engine has apparently suffered this failure.
Was just about to get on an expressway for ride yesterday - thank god I didn't - when I noticed a noise from the left side. Having followed this thread - I change my route and rode slowly to my dealer, hoping it might be just some tappet adjusting needed. Nope. A very serious failure.

I'm hearing this in Japanese and over the phone, so read it for what it is worth, but he suspects "tappet and lifter failure due to defective metal". The importer is sending down parts for the repair. Apparently the first such instance in Japan for the 8v.

Pete - I strongly asked him to hang onto the defective parts which I'll glad you send to you, but he said the importer might want them too. I see what I can do.

Hmmmmmm....

Nick
 
I'm hoping that the Oz importer will allow me a set of failed parts or I'll get a failure in as a warranty job, (Obviously bad news for the owner but.......). while I'm more than happy to accept that there may be a hardening problem I want PROOF and the only way I'll believe it is if I do the testing or it is done by someone I trust and respect.

This has got to be dealt with. so far Nada from the factory, hence, more than ever, my desire to be able to do independent testing.

Pete
 
BTW, the factory in question currently is the old Piaggio one in Pontedera (as mentioned elsewhere, we'll have to wait and see if the one in Mandello is ever going to open again ... what with the current crisis and all).
 
Interesting that Guzzi seems to be scooping up all damaged parts, worldwide. Has that been the case with other, known, problems?
 
mike wilson wrote:
Interesting that Guzzi seems to be scooping up all damaged parts, worldwide. Has that been the case with other, known, problems?
Click to expand...

Well, this is the first new piaggio engine for guzzi, so I suppose they know they have to fix it good. Else they have a big problem.
 
Its all gone a bit quiet. Just wondered if anyone has heard anything more regarding what could be causing these occasional failures, and whether Guzzi are doing anything particular in terms of recalls or repairs?
 
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