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Modern "No Start" issue solution

Discussion in 'Chat & Tech Info' started by GT-Rx®, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. Bill Hagan

    Bill Hagan GT Reference GT Famiglia

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    OK, will put on my forum ATGATT immediately after posting this and hunker down for the flames. :giggle:

    Now, with that defensive preamble out of the way, given what I believe are the other items on that circuit, where's the harm in just up-gunning the fuse to a 25A or even more?

    Some hypothetical people I know very well have done just that. :lipssealed:

    Bill
     
  2. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Very True Bill. That is "a" way to solve the problem - which is inrush current through the solenoid and is not tempered by the iron core as it gets pulled into the solenoid. Solenoids are designed to allow the current to be controlled through a choke/coil/inductor (the solenoid coil) as it pulls in. This is done in a specific time to allow everything to work properly. When the solenoid slug gets dirty or jams in any way, the time part of the equation goes out of kilter. As the slug gets pulled in, the coil inductance rises (read complex resistance as it's very dynamic) and reduces the current so that the starter is engaged, the fuse is a happy little chappy, and your bike starts.

    When this is slow, the current stays too high and pops the little fuse. It's not the fuse's fault it's doing what it's designed to do - blow when there is a problem. So rather than work around the problem, it's better to solve the original problem and not mask it with a pretty heavy duty band-aid.

    Happy to go into a very technical discussion on how that all works, but it will be boring as batshit to most people, and I couldn't really be bothered - better things to do. Will also involve lots of maths - and I hate maths.
     
    gasgas likes this.
  3. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    You do need to lubricate the pivot though.

    There are actually two problems, one blows fuses when the solenoid doesn't engage properly, leaving the high current coil still in circuit, thus blowing the fuse, and the other is when the solenoid doesn't actually move and all you hear is the click from the relay. This requires the wiring mod, and will probably happen at some time to most models.

    The solenoid on my Norge was covered in sticky grease from new, which had to be cleaned out. There is also a Service Release showing how to clean the Bendix part of the main shaft which can also stop the solenoid from moving.

    Also a poor connection anywhere I that circuit will cause low volts at the solenoid spade terminal which will also cause the fuse to blow.

    Things are never that simple.
     
  4. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Actually Oz, your description is not quite right. there are two coils in the solenoid, a heavy high current one which is used to pull in the plunger and move the pinion, and another smaller one which holds it all in place while the starter motor runs. The first heavy coil is earthed through the starter, so is shorted out when the contact is made. That coil takes about 25A, but should only operate for less than a second so won't normally blow the fuse. If the plunger doesn't go full travel (for whatever reason) then the high current remains and the fuse blows.
    The way to avoid the fuse blowing is to immediately flick the start button out to the kill position when you just hear that clunk.
     
  5. taz

    taz Just got it firing!

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    I continue to have the problem on my 07 Norge. Multiple pushes of the start button result in a click but no starter engagement, occasionally it would blow the 15amp fuse. I recently added the MPH solution and the fuse blew instantly. I went with a 20 amp fuse on the MPH wiring harness and it blew. I removed the MPH wiring harness and went back to the original wiring. I continue to have the issue, but it will typically start within 4 clicks without blowing the standard 15amp fuse. I am tempted to use a 25amp fuse in the MPH harness.
     
  6. GT-Rx®

    GT-Rx® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Some of those that they did were wired wrong. Reach back out to Mike. Sure he'll rectify the issue.
     
    john zibell likes this.
  7. taz

    taz Just got it firing!

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    Thanks, I will
     
  8. taz

    taz Just got it firing!

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    It ended up being the starter motor. Replaced it, all is well.
     
  9. Sanchin10

    Sanchin10 Just got it firing!

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    "07 Breva-11 Where to re solder Green wire inside Starter button? Cannot trace o wiring diagram...help please!
     
  10. Sanchin10

    Sanchin10 Just got it firing!

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  11. Sanchin10

    Sanchin10 Just got it firing!

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    '07 Breva-11 Green wire inside starter button needs to be re-soldered but cannot locate where to re-connect in the wiring diagram. thank ya'll for any/all help!
     
  12. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    Starter button is shown in Carl's diagram as the bottom part of item 5.

    Wires appear to be yellow with a red strip and blue (ground). Dunno where the green wire fits in. Perhaps the blue wire has faded to a dull green?
     
    Sanchin10 likes this.
  13. Michael Goodwin

    Michael Goodwin Just got it firing!

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    Would like to add my kudos and thanks to all who had a hand in trouble-shooting and addressing this most annoying problem. Having experienced the issue while over 1000 miles from home I can attest it is enough to make you want to buy another brand.

    I was able to apply the basic fix to my '05 Nevada 750 and so far - all is good. Thanks again for all your work.

    Mike on Long Island
     

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