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Modern "No Start" issue solution

Discussion in 'Chat & Tech Info' started by GT-Rx®, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

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    Thanks again! This is the handicap of half-knowledge: However much out-of-the-blue complex data I recollect, I miss essential information about basic stuff like this - thank god for forums!
     
  2. Kiwi_Roy

    Kiwi_Roy Just got it firing!

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    Brian UK,
    I'm sure you are correct about the 2 coils, but I suspect Guzzi don't know about it otherwise why not show it on their schematics, I have only seen it on a couple of non Guzzi drawings.

    The huge inrush current has been the cause of much misery for Guzzi owners worldwide, even the latest bikes with computer controlled starting have the same ridiculous wiring mistakes. I don't know how many times I have read about someone having to get a tow because the bike failed to start.

    A simple wiring change with the heavy current in mind would clear up the "Startus Interuptus" problem for good.
    Do you think Luigi even visits the forums?

    Cheers
    Roy
     
  3. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

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    I read once somewhere that circa early '80s an engineer would be fired from GM if he suggested the addition of just one resistor to a car's management system currently under production if he could not prove that this addition would be needed for safety reasons and not just for engineering "improvement".
    Maybe the same case here...
    If you considered the multiple overhauling of the firm and lay-off of old staff along the current bean-counting management it is not hard to see the "if it works do not change it" mentality, me thinks.
     
    StewNic likes this.
  4. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Well it always has been a silly idea to run the solenoid current through the ignition switch. I doubt the switch contacts are designed to take 20 amps let alone 30.
    But for some unknown reason Guzzi have been doing this since before 1980, had to do the same mod on my V50.

    As for cost, I do know that several owners who reported this problem during the warranty period have had new starter motors fitted. How much did that cost? And it would not have cured the problem either.

    No I don't think anyone from Guzzi ever listens to feedback from owners. Large bucket of sand for immersing head in is all that is required.
     
  5. Marty Ray

    Marty Ray Just got it firing!

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    I read the whole entire thread.

    FIrst, I think that the issues with CARC bikes need to be considered separately, even though there are some similarities in the problem. So here I am only talking about CARC bikes with computer controlled starting. The starter button wire goes straight into the ECU. But there are 2 relays involved, and the mini fuse block or auxilliary fuse block and nothing has been mentioned about the other relay.

    No one in the thread seems to distinguish between bikes with the start button you have to hold down (older) vs. the ones where you just touch the button.

    Please correct me if I am wrong: CARC bikes with computer controlled starting, do not require you to hold down the starter button in order to start. Upon just touching the start button, the system should kick in and hold in cranking mode itself, until it starts.
    I have been suffering from the non-start issue on my 08 Norge ever since it was new. The dealer fixed it a few times, but I don't think they ever learned much. I've been towed several times. One time I fixed it by replacing the start relay. But the problem kept coming back. I have a new lithium battery, no corrosion on terminals, new relays, and the actual solenoid and starter motor work just fine if the solenoid actuating wire from the start relay is given 12v directly. The problem centers around the relays and the ECU that control starting. If the start button only went to the relay directly, this issue would be more like the older bike issues mixed into this thread. I have been seeking, on my own, a definitive fix to this annoying issue.

    Here are my current ideas, and I invite comment and criticism:

    1) the failure mode on CARC bikes can be 2 stage: the bike can either totally fail to start (starter relay clicks) or it can go into a mid stage failure in which you can still start by holding the button down. If you ignore this mid stage the total failure will soon happen.

    2) I found that the failure could be cured by replacement of non blown fuses in the auxilliary (2ndary) fuse block located just in front of the Tool pouch area under the seat. This has 6 mini fuses (5 on Euro bikes with no ABS etc.).
    In this fuse block, a fuse would look perfectly good but if you replaced it the system would function properly again, for a while. In addition, if you were to scrape the original fuse's mini spade terminals, you could also get it to work.
    Until I saw Carls nice wiring diagram, I mistakenly thought that fuse D was controlling the yellow wire to the starter relay. This caused me to independently decide to run the yellow wire straight to the relay, taking the relay out of the circuit with the tail light and ignition switch power to lights circuit. This is from fuse B. I went from battery via a 30A fuse in separate holder, straight to the relay, with the other yellow wire carefully removed from the relay plug and taped over.

    3) for me, the routing of the yellow wire straight from the battery to terminal 3 on the start relay worked at first, but quickly, the problem went back to the failure mode where you need to hold down the button.

    4) now I plan to also route, straight from the battery, the orange wire coming from mini fuse D in the auxilliary fuse block. This wire does nothing else but go straight from battery, through the fuse, to terminal 30 on the Main Injection Relay (#29 on Carl and factory schematics). When the ignition switch is turned on, this relay switches power from the orange wire to a circuit with the ECU, auxilliary injection relay start button, and starter relay on the lower power side, with a wire I think is red and black, or orange and black. If this circuit does not get enough power, the system will only work if you hold down the button. This is why, when I would replace or scrape terminals, on the fuse here, I could fix the problem temporarily. This relay is different from the start relay, it is a VF-4 type, with terminals 30, 87, 85 and 86. Hella number 4RA940010-71 and Guzzi/ Aprilia number AP8124869. It is a hard to find relay because it features a resistor and diode which I think are there to protect the ECU (correct me if you want). I was not able to find this outside the motorcycle world. I replaced this with the same relay, easily locally available, except without the resistor and diode, and this showed that the actual relay was ok. It appears to be, like the starter relay, the power supply to this relay and not the relay itself. Still, I plan to carry a spare just like I carry a start relay and fuses, and wiring diagram- small insurance items. No one in this thread has mentioned this VF-4 relay.

    5) my current hypothesis about this whole failure, is that the main cause is that the large current spikes needed to operate the system as it is supposed to function (i.e. by just touching the start button and the system taking over) cause some sort of deterioration of the connections in the mini fuse box, such that resistance increases, and then either of the 2 failure modes ensues. The current needed to kick in and hold this starting system is such, that the connections and extra wires in the overall system (as mentioned in this thread) are such that resistance builds and these failures happen. I think that basically any circuits that are going to have these high current spikes are going to need to be powered by heavier duty connections. My replacement wires were heavy gauge and with larger size fuses, just to these power connections on the 2 relays, and with soldered terminals. It remains to be seen whether the same fuse connection deterioration will occur on these separate fuse holders- perhaps upgrading to all gold plated terminals would help this. It could well be, that complete replacement of the auxiliary fuse block with its terminals, perhaps soldering them, would cure the issue until the corrosion or surface change in these terminals, came back through exposure to the current spikes. But this silly little fuse block is really inadequate for these kinds of power circuits.

    6) I have been scared that really the fundamental fault was some computer thing, or that making fixes like this, would cause damage to the ECU, but so far that has not proved to be the case. It is more like, these wimpy connections do not allow the button, ECU, and relays as well as the starter solenoid, to draw as much current in the initial spike as they actually need to. This momentary high current draw causes the relays to kick in and hold to crank the motor until it starts. If it's already warm, this time is much shorter.

    Let me know your thoughts.
     
  6. selbatsd

    selbatsd Just got it firing!

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    Hi Marty I too have been reading through this thread and was becoming somewhat frustrated with the non starting of my 2007 Breva 1100. I have carried out the wiring mod i.e. removing the yellow wire and connecting the relay directly to the battery and things seemed OK. That is until the other day when the ambient temperatures here in the UK were quite high. I had been out on a hour plus ride and stopped at the local BMW car garage to take a break and have a look around. When I got back to the bike I pressed the starter, the engine fired for a second then died, then despite repeated attempts nothing. Even started getting spurious warnings on the dash including ECU disconnect, asking for the Key codes, and the red triangle and the dreaded SERVICE warning on the dash. Eventually got it started and rode home, no problems at all except the Red Triangle was illuminated. Once home I let it stand a few minutes to effect a heat soak, tried to start it - nothing. Ran the diagnostics and got an ECU Code 14 which is Engine Temperature Error DC V DC ECU 14. Cleared all the codes including some dashboard ones relating the Immobiliser and Key faults, left it for 10 minutes or so and it started OK. Let the bike idle to get hot, switched off and tried to restart - again nothing. This is where I have been sidetracked as I thought it had something to do with the Oil Temperature sensor which I thought triggered some sort of fail save when the engine got too warm and prevented it starting. I've ordered a new Oil Temperature Switch which I will fit (when received). However, in the meantime I'll pull the fuse you've highlighted and see whether I can see any build up on the terminals. I am convinced that the problem is heat related and it seems most prevalent when the ambient temperature is high, the bike has been run and then allowed to stand which creates a heat soak condition.
    I would be interested to hear what other have done to try and resolve this problem, which is spoiling my enjoyment of a very accomplished bike!
     
  7. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    That sounds like an independent problem that's only related because it also causes a starting failure. Given that others ride Guzzis under much warmer conditions than likely in the UK (probably even *with* the relative humidity I'd expect on a warm UK day) it seems likely you indeed have a failing part or connection.

    Among the last things I had done on my Norge was the installation of Piaggio's own fixes for the non-start issues; both the heavier wire and an additional element (capacitor IIRC) in the circuit. I haven't had starting issues then, not even had to hold down the starter switch rather than using the one-touch starter programme. But that's probably also because I 1) use a Shorai battery and 2) ride so infrequently that I disconnect the battery after each ride.
     
  8. selbatsd

    selbatsd Just got it firing!

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    Hi RJVB what's the Capacitor IIRC fix? Can you supply any details?
     
  9. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    Hi,

    More details in the attachment. Sorry I only have it in French but it may already be available in English in the tech docs section. The fix consists of adding a (big?) capacitor and a diode to the existing circuit which apparently has been designed to receive those extra components (so this is a legally valid workaround in places where Piaggio cannot tell dealers to modify the existing electric installation).

    (IIRC = If I Remember Correctly)
     

    Attached Files:

  10. selbatsd

    selbatsd Just got it firing!

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    Thanks RJVB it seems that to overcome the Hot Start problem the 'fix' is to increase the size of the wire between pin 5 of the Starter Relay and the Starter Solenoid to 2.5mm2 wire, which I presume would be 30 amp capacity. This is the other 'end' to the contact of the relay fed by pin 3 which is the yellow wire I have already disconnected and fed directly from the + terminal of the battery through a 15amp fuse. I will adopt this 'fix' as well then at least I know that the power feed to the starter solenoid is devoid of an current sapping interferences. The other mod is for a cold start problem which I do not have.
     
  11. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    I think you're correct w.r.t. the hot start problem. The extra elements are for the other starting issue, in which the ECU sees a battery voltage that's too low, and disables the starter.
     
  12. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    Wouldn't the addition of the capacitor increase the current the poor little ignition switch has to handle?

    "Legally valid" is not necessarily the correct means of fixing the problem.
     
  13. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    That should depend on where the capacitor is. If it is after the ignition switch then it should take some of the load off the switch, the capacitor could store voltage after the switch and feed it back in when the demand is there, reducing the amount of inrush that the switch needs to carry.
     
  14. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    The other cause of the no start situation where you hear a clunk from the solenoid, but the starter motor doesn't engage, is to clean out the solenoid, for some reason the manufacturer puts grease in there, this dries out and becomes sticky. Clean it off and ideally reassemble dry, but I actually used a smear of light oil.
    The hot no start situation I have heard of before, and it is to do with the engine becoming too hot, hence the ECU fault code. Once cooled off, the engine will start again. Happened to a friend on a trip in Germany, on a hot day, delayed in traffic.

    Remember the current which activates the solenoid is best part of 20 Amps, and in the original setup this has to pass through the ignition switch, the contacts of which are almost certainly not designed to take such a current.
     
  15. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    And the capacitor would continue to supply current after the ignition switch is turned off. Thus it will be discharged when the ignition switch is turned on again, resulting in a large rush of initial current.

    But there was a diode involved too. I can't imagine where this would be added, but if anybody can explain I'm all ears.
     
  16. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    But in an ideal world there is no need for the solenoid current to go through the ignition switch contacts.
     
  17. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Capacitor and diode theory - haven't seen the circuit so can only guess...

    Diode feeds capacitor from approx 12 Volts, capacitor remains charged for when the starter button button in pressed. This Capacitor feeds the ECU input that monitors the system voltage. Capacitor remains charged (the current pulled by the ECU is minute - it is only sensing the voltage to make sure it is "sufficient"). The diode prevents the capacitor being discharged through the starting cycle.

    There will be no initial inrush current. This is all to fool the ECU into starting when the battery is a bit marginal. Remember the capacitor is charged when the ignition is turned on, before the starter button is pressed.

    I tried to find an english version of that document Rene, my french is a tad ordinaire!
     
  18. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    That makes sense.
     
  19. Michael White

    Michael White Just got it firing!

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    I have read other threads in these forums on Griso 8V models blowing the 15 amp fuse on starting. My problem was occasional then jumped to 12 in 3 weeks. The best solution is the one that seems to address the problem. Loosen the solenoid and spray some WD40 or 3in1 in to lubricate the spindle. This is simple and works 100%. There is nothing wrong with the wiring otherwise they would blow fuses from day one. Simple job too; 2x 5mm hex bolts for the cover. 2x 13mm bolts for the starter then 3x 25Torx screws to loosen the solenoid.
     
  20. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Michael, sorry but you should NEVER lubricate the solenoid plunger. While it works now, it will attract debris and turn to grease and the whole cycle will start over again. Remove it, clean it, assembly dry. Problems (well this one anyway) should not return.
     

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