Ridemalibu Motorcycle Rentals & Tours – Los Angeles CA
  1. Ciao Guest - You’ve landed at the ultimate Guzzi site. In SoCal? See the SERVICE tab above for the best in service, tires, tuning and installation of our products or custom work. NEW FORUM REGISTRATIONS REQUIRE EMAIL ACTIVATION - CHECK YOUR SPAM FOLDER. ALWAYS TRY A SEARCH BEFORE STARTING A NEW TOPIC - Most questions you may have are already answered on the Forum with FACTS, NOT OPINIONS. PLEASE DON'T BE A DRIVE-BY POSTER: As a common courtesy, check back if you are posting elsewhere on the web. Note there's decades of Guzzi hands-on experienced help on this site, all whom give endless amounts of their time for free; BE COURTEOUS AND RESPECTFUL! There is zero tolerance on personal attacks and off-site links to other Forums or competing products. Also be sure to click on the STORE link also above for our 600+ product inventory, including many of our 100% Made-in-house-USA GTM products and engine kits. We appreciate the consideration, understanding and your business... past and future. And if you haven't seen our MotoCycle (not) art, click on the BUILDS tab above to see our work at our sister business; GT MotoCycles® -- WE ARE ONLINE ONLY - NO PHONE CALLS MADE OR RECEIVED.

Modern "No Start" issue solution

Discussion in 'Chat & Tech Info' started by GTM®, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    8,107
    Likes Received:
    901
    Location:
    Huntsville, AL
    It looks like that relay is there to allow starter operation if you hold the starter switch down. By the schematic, you could remove that relay and the bike would start under ECU control. The supply voltage to the relays still looks poor. I'd say the 8 valve bikes would benefit from the mod just like all the others.
     
  2. NickSzasz

    NickSzasz Tuned and Synch'ed

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Fukuoka, Japan
    Hello again,

    I finally got to talk to my mechanic about this problem. He's willing to try the direct to starter wiring fix for me.

    I read the thread about this:
    https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/196/4908

    But it seems to talk about small blocks first and then, later, less specifically about the CARC bikes.

    I have a Girso 12008v (2008)

    My mechanic doesn't speak or read English well (he's Japanese) so showing him that thread didn't help.

    Would someone be kind enough to provide a sketch of wiring fix for this?

    With that my mechanic can implement it and I'll be back on the road.

    Thanks in advance,

    Nick
     
  3. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    8,107
    Likes Received:
    901
    Location:
    Huntsville, AL
    Use the graphic in the first post of the thread. Just change the color of the wire that gets the 12 volts directly from the battery to yellow. Also tell him this is done for the starter relays, items 2 and 3 in Carl's schematic in the downloads section.
     
  4. ghezzi

    ghezzi High Miler GT Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I decided it was time to do this to my Bellagio after a bump start the other day. I had 13.3v on the dash (Lithium battery) but got zero response. This time the voltage didn't even drop.

    I chose to pick apart the connector on the "Yellow" wire in the back of the fuse/relay box, so I could use the same gauge wire as the two 30A fuse wires from the battery + terminal. I prefer a single wire without joins etc midway and I soldered all terminals.

    However, when moving things around I discovered the two 30A fuse wires had been twisted together and the battery terminal had only been crimped. IT FELL OFF IN MY HAND! That may explain a lot.

    Two heavy gauge wires into a single 6mm eye terminal simply doesn't fit. So I spliced one wire into the middle of the other soldering it, and then soldered the terminal on the end of the long wire to connect to the battery.

    After completion and repeated quick fire starting, I had a thought (danger danger).
    Two circuits, each with a 30A fuse are drawing current through a single small gauge wire of about 3" in length.
    Will this equate to too much resistance etc. for its intended requirements?

    Update: Previous cranking would see voltage drop to about 9.5V, now it holds 11.0V while starting.
     
  5. GuzziHero

    GuzziHero Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    467
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Bloody-Trent
    Y'know, I always thought it was some low-voltage cut-off to protect the battery from over draining. It got to the stage where I'd take the bike to work and remove the fuses, so that it would start when I came back to it 12 hours later.

    Right, now to find someone in my area who can do this for me.
     
  6. Kiwi_Roy

    Kiwi_Roy Just got it firing!

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    New Westminster
    I signed up here ages ago but haven't been back
    The starter solenoid draws about 40 Amps for a split second, it only takes a slight resistance to prevent that.
    The fixes listed above are well worth doing

    Here's a simple schematic of the Valeo starter circuit trying to explain why it's important

    http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s52 ... 69d0b7.jpg - or image attached below if kink above is dead.

    My V11 Sport has nice direct wiring as shown but most Guzzis pass the 40 Amps through the switch, even the extra wiring to and fro is a problem IMHO The Bosch starters also have this issue.

    If ever you get stuck by a bike that won't crank work the ignition switch a few times to improve the contact, if that doesn't help touch a short wire from battery + (or large hot terminal on the starter) to the small spade connector on the solenoid, this bypasses all the wiring and will give the solenoid full power.

    Roy
    Here's the Valeo

    Did I attach that or someone smarter than me fix it :(

    And the Bosch
    [​IMG]
    http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s52 ... ae1aec.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    622
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Thessaly, Greece
    Very very nice documents! [​IMG]
    I suppose this double wound solenoid is not specific to Guzzis so thank you for the enlightenment since I had not come across to such data yet.

    By the way, a link to the numbering scheme of most automotive electrics that I came across the other day:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_72552
     
  8. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2008
    Messages:
    2,050
    Likes Received:
    210
    Location:
    Addlestone, Surrey, UK
    Almost all starter motor solenoids have two coils, one for pulling the solenoid in and the other just to hold it in once the contact is made.
     
  9. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    622
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Thessaly, Greece
    Thanks again! This is the handicap of half-knowledge: However much out-of-the-blue complex data I recollect, I miss essential information about basic stuff like this - thank god for forums!
     
  10. Kiwi_Roy

    Kiwi_Roy Just got it firing!

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    New Westminster
    Brian UK,
    I'm sure you are correct about the 2 coils, but I suspect Guzzi don't know about it otherwise why not show it on their schematics, I have only seen it on a couple of non Guzzi drawings.

    The huge inrush current has been the cause of much misery for Guzzi owners worldwide, even the latest bikes with computer controlled starting have the same ridiculous wiring mistakes. I don't know how many times I have read about someone having to get a tow because the bike failed to start.

    A simple wiring change with the heavy current in mind would clear up the "Startus Interuptus" problem for good.
    Do you think Luigi even visits the forums?

    Cheers
    Roy
     
  11. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    622
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Thessaly, Greece
    I read once somewhere that circa early '80s an engineer would be fired from GM if he suggested the addition of just one resistor to a car's management system currently under production if he could not prove that this addition would be needed for safety reasons and not just for engineering "improvement".
    Maybe the same case here...
    If you considered the multiple overhauling of the firm and lay-off of old staff along the current bean-counting management it is not hard to see the "if it works do not change it" mentality, me thinks.
     
    StewNic likes this.
  12. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2008
    Messages:
    2,050
    Likes Received:
    210
    Location:
    Addlestone, Surrey, UK
    Well it always has been a silly idea to run the solenoid current through the ignition switch. I doubt the switch contacts are designed to take 20 amps let alone 30.
    But for some unknown reason Guzzi have been doing this since before 1980, had to do the same mod on my V50.

    As for cost, I do know that several owners who reported this problem during the warranty period have had new starter motors fitted. How much did that cost? And it would not have cured the problem either.

    No I don't think anyone from Guzzi ever listens to feedback from owners. Large bucket of sand for immersing head in is all that is required.
     
  13. Marty Ray

    Marty Ray Just got it firing!

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    California USA
    I read the whole entire thread.

    FIrst, I think that the issues with CARC bikes need to be considered separately, even though there are some similarities in the problem. So here I am only talking about CARC bikes with computer controlled starting. The starter button wire goes straight into the ECU. But there are 2 relays involved, and the mini fuse block or auxilliary fuse block and nothing has been mentioned about the other relay.

    No one in the thread seems to distinguish between bikes with the start button you have to hold down (older) vs. the ones where you just touch the button.

    Please correct me if I am wrong: CARC bikes with computer controlled starting, do not require you to hold down the starter button in order to start. Upon just touching the start button, the system should kick in and hold in cranking mode itself, until it starts.
    I have been suffering from the non-start issue on my 08 Norge ever since it was new. The dealer fixed it a few times, but I don't think they ever learned much. I've been towed several times. One time I fixed it by replacing the start relay. But the problem kept coming back. I have a new lithium battery, no corrosion on terminals, new relays, and the actual solenoid and starter motor work just fine if the solenoid actuating wire from the start relay is given 12v directly. The problem centers around the relays and the ECU that control starting. If the start button only went to the relay directly, this issue would be more like the older bike issues mixed into this thread. I have been seeking, on my own, a definitive fix to this annoying issue.

    Here are my current ideas, and I invite comment and criticism:

    1) the failure mode on CARC bikes can be 2 stage: the bike can either totally fail to start (starter relay clicks) or it can go into a mid stage failure in which you can still start by holding the button down. If you ignore this mid stage the total failure will soon happen.

    2) I found that the failure could be cured by replacement of non blown fuses in the auxilliary (2ndary) fuse block located just in front of the Tool pouch area under the seat. This has 6 mini fuses (5 on Euro bikes with no ABS etc.).
    In this fuse block, a fuse would look perfectly good but if you replaced it the system would function properly again, for a while. In addition, if you were to scrape the original fuse's mini spade terminals, you could also get it to work.
    Until I saw Carls nice wiring diagram, I mistakenly thought that fuse D was controlling the yellow wire to the starter relay. This caused me to independently decide to run the yellow wire straight to the relay, taking the relay out of the circuit with the tail light and ignition switch power to lights circuit. This is from fuse B. I went from battery via a 30A fuse in separate holder, straight to the relay, with the other yellow wire carefully removed from the relay plug and taped over.

    3) for me, the routing of the yellow wire straight from the battery to terminal 3 on the start relay worked at first, but quickly, the problem went back to the failure mode where you need to hold down the button.

    4) now I plan to also route, straight from the battery, the orange wire coming from mini fuse D in the auxilliary fuse block. This wire does nothing else but go straight from battery, through the fuse, to terminal 30 on the Main Injection Relay (#29 on Carl and factory schematics). When the ignition switch is turned on, this relay switches power from the orange wire to a circuit with the ECU, auxilliary injection relay start button, and starter relay on the lower power side, with a wire I think is red and black, or orange and black. If this circuit does not get enough power, the system will only work if you hold down the button. This is why, when I would replace or scrape terminals, on the fuse here, I could fix the problem temporarily. This relay is different from the start relay, it is a VF-4 type, with terminals 30, 87, 85 and 86. Hella number 4RA940010-71 and Guzzi/ Aprilia number AP8124869. It is a hard to find relay because it features a resistor and diode which I think are there to protect the ECU (correct me if you want). I was not able to find this outside the motorcycle world. I replaced this with the same relay, easily locally available, except without the resistor and diode, and this showed that the actual relay was ok. It appears to be, like the starter relay, the power supply to this relay and not the relay itself. Still, I plan to carry a spare just like I carry a start relay and fuses, and wiring diagram- small insurance items. No one in this thread has mentioned this VF-4 relay.

    5) my current hypothesis about this whole failure, is that the main cause is that the large current spikes needed to operate the system as it is supposed to function (i.e. by just touching the start button and the system taking over) cause some sort of deterioration of the connections in the mini fuse box, such that resistance increases, and then either of the 2 failure modes ensues. The current needed to kick in and hold this starting system is such, that the connections and extra wires in the overall system (as mentioned in this thread) are such that resistance builds and these failures happen. I think that basically any circuits that are going to have these high current spikes are going to need to be powered by heavier duty connections. My replacement wires were heavy gauge and with larger size fuses, just to these power connections on the 2 relays, and with soldered terminals. It remains to be seen whether the same fuse connection deterioration will occur on these separate fuse holders- perhaps upgrading to all gold plated terminals would help this. It could well be, that complete replacement of the auxiliary fuse block with its terminals, perhaps soldering them, would cure the issue until the corrosion or surface change in these terminals, came back through exposure to the current spikes. But this silly little fuse block is really inadequate for these kinds of power circuits.

    6) I have been scared that really the fundamental fault was some computer thing, or that making fixes like this, would cause damage to the ECU, but so far that has not proved to be the case. It is more like, these wimpy connections do not allow the button, ECU, and relays as well as the starter solenoid, to draw as much current in the initial spike as they actually need to. This momentary high current draw causes the relays to kick in and hold to crank the motor until it starts. If it's already warm, this time is much shorter.

    Let me know your thoughts.
     
  14. selbatsd

    selbatsd Just got it firing!

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Marty I too have been reading through this thread and was becoming somewhat frustrated with the non starting of my 2007 Breva 1100. I have carried out the wiring mod i.e. removing the yellow wire and connecting the relay directly to the battery and things seemed OK. That is until the other day when the ambient temperatures here in the UK were quite high. I had been out on a hour plus ride and stopped at the local BMW car garage to take a break and have a look around. When I got back to the bike I pressed the starter, the engine fired for a second then died, then despite repeated attempts nothing. Even started getting spurious warnings on the dash including ECU disconnect, asking for the Key codes, and the red triangle and the dreaded SERVICE warning on the dash. Eventually got it started and rode home, no problems at all except the Red Triangle was illuminated. Once home I let it stand a few minutes to effect a heat soak, tried to start it - nothing. Ran the diagnostics and got an ECU Code 14 which is Engine Temperature Error DC V DC ECU 14. Cleared all the codes including some dashboard ones relating the Immobiliser and Key faults, left it for 10 minutes or so and it started OK. Let the bike idle to get hot, switched off and tried to restart - again nothing. This is where I have been sidetracked as I thought it had something to do with the Oil Temperature sensor which I thought triggered some sort of fail save when the engine got too warm and prevented it starting. I've ordered a new Oil Temperature Switch which I will fit (when received). However, in the meantime I'll pull the fuse you've highlighted and see whether I can see any build up on the terminals. I am convinced that the problem is heat related and it seems most prevalent when the ambient temperature is high, the bike has been run and then allowed to stand which creates a heat soak condition.
    I would be interested to hear what other have done to try and resolve this problem, which is spoiling my enjoyment of a very accomplished bike!
     
  15. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,940
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Paris
    That sounds like an independent problem that's only related because it also causes a starting failure. Given that others ride Guzzis under much warmer conditions than likely in the UK (probably even *with* the relative humidity I'd expect on a warm UK day) it seems likely you indeed have a failing part or connection.

    Among the last things I had done on my Norge was the installation of Piaggio's own fixes for the non-start issues; both the heavier wire and an additional element (capacitor IIRC) in the circuit. I haven't had starting issues then, not even had to hold down the starter switch rather than using the one-touch starter programme. But that's probably also because I 1) use a Shorai battery and 2) ride so infrequently that I disconnect the battery after each ride.
     
  16. selbatsd

    selbatsd Just got it firing!

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi RJVB what's the Capacitor IIRC fix? Can you supply any details?
     
  17. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,940
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Paris
    Hi,

    More details in the attachment. Sorry I only have it in French but it may already be available in English in the tech docs section. The fix consists of adding a (big?) capacitor and a diode to the existing circuit which apparently has been designed to receive those extra components (so this is a legally valid workaround in places where Piaggio cannot tell dealers to modify the existing electric installation).

    (IIRC = If I Remember Correctly)
     

    Attached Files:

  18. selbatsd

    selbatsd Just got it firing!

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks RJVB it seems that to overcome the Hot Start problem the 'fix' is to increase the size of the wire between pin 5 of the Starter Relay and the Starter Solenoid to 2.5mm2 wire, which I presume would be 30 amp capacity. This is the other 'end' to the contact of the relay fed by pin 3 which is the yellow wire I have already disconnected and fed directly from the + terminal of the battery through a 15amp fuse. I will adopt this 'fix' as well then at least I know that the power feed to the starter solenoid is devoid of an current sapping interferences. The other mod is for a cold start problem which I do not have.
     
  19. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,940
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Paris
    I think you're correct w.r.t. the hot start problem. The extra elements are for the other starting issue, in which the ECU sees a battery voltage that's too low, and disables the starter.
     
  20. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    2,053
    Likes Received:
    355
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Wouldn't the addition of the capacitor increase the current the poor little ignition switch has to handle?

    "Legally valid" is not necessarily the correct means of fixing the problem.
     

Share This Page