Ridemalibu Motorcycle Rentals & Tours – Los Angeles CA
  1. Ciao Guest - You’ve landed at the ultimate Guzzi site. In SoCal? See the SERVICE tab above for the best in service, tires, tuning and installation of our products or custom work. NEW FORUM REGISTRATIONS REQUIRE EMAIL ACTIVATION - CHECK YOUR SPAM FOLDER. ALWAYS TRY A SEARCH BEFORE STARTING A NEW TOPIC - Most questions you may have are already answered on the Forum with FACTS, NOT OPINIONS. PLEASE DON'T BE A DRIVE-BY POSTER: As a common courtesy, check back if you are posting elsewhere on the web. Note there's decades of Guzzi hands-on experienced help on this site, all whom give endless amounts of their time for free; BE COURTEOUS AND RESPECTFUL! There is zero tolerance on personal attacks and off-site links to other Forums or competing products. Also be sure to click on the STORE link also above for our 600+ product inventory, including many of our 100% Made-in-house-USA GTM products and engine kits. We appreciate the consideration, understanding and your business... past and future. And if you haven't seen our MotoCycle (not) art, click on the BUILDS tab above to see our work at our sister business; GT MotoCycles®-- WE ARE ONLINE ONLY - NO PHONE CALLS MADE OR RECEIVED.

Modern "No Start" issue solution

Discussion in 'Chat & Tech Info' started by GT-Rx®, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    852
    Location:
    Huntsville, AL
    It is called a maintenance induced failure. What other connections did you have to restore? I'd look at what was done there.
     
  2. sign216

    sign216 High Miler

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Messages:
    867
    Likes Received:
    31
    Location:
    Eastern, Massachusetts
    Dikman, I did the mod over the winter for a V7C, and it worked fine, although there wasn't a significant voltage increase.

    You must be at the wrong relay or have a wire confused.

    The Breva does have a slightly different electrical set up than the V7. Sorry I don't have more for you.
     
  3. dikman

    dikman Tuned and Synch'ed

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sth. Oz
    John, no other connections involved, the only wire I replaced was the yellow one (the one via the relay contacts). I did turn on the ignition with the relay removed, while trying to identify the wires, so I'm guessing that may have triggered the "maintenance failure", although why it only cleared when I put the original wire back doesn't make sense, particularly if that is only a battery feed.

    My first thought was that I had the wrong relay, but I don't think so. It's the small one against the frame, closest to the front of the bike. It also had two wires that matched the colours on Carl's cct (including the yellow via the contacts), none of the other relays came close in that regard.

    I'm not overly worried about it, just very curious.
     
  4. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    852
    Location:
    Huntsville, AL
    The guys at the factory don't always put the relays where they are suppose to. Disconnect the solenoid (at the starter) and make sure the wire doesn't ground and touch the relay when you press the starter button. You should feel it click.
     
  5. Rafael

    Rafael GT Reference

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,099
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    San Leandro, CA
    All right, went ahead an did a version of the mod. The gold plated connector only helped for about a month.

    I already had a 30 amp relay set up for aftermarket heated grips, so I figured that this relay can serve another function. I stead of connecting directly to the battery, I connected to the power output of the relay which is connected to the battery. Disconnected the Yellow (B11) wire at the relay and plugged in a new wire from the heated grip relay.

    I don't think the voltage is a red herring - if voltage is a factor in amperage then why wouldn't a lower voltage be a cause for inadequate amperage at the solenoid.

    Not sure if this is the MPH solution - maybe maybe not, in any case with a shorter run from the batter there's less resistance.
     
  6. dikman

    dikman Tuned and Synch'ed

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sth. Oz
    I've resurrected this because my recent misadventure sort-of fits in with some of this (I think, although I'm still a wee bit perplexed). The bike's been fine until now - I rode to the library, came out, turned on ignition, it went through the startup routine, I hit the starter and - nothing! Tried again, same thing. After the panic had dissipated, I checked the fuses and the "B" fuse in the secondary fuse box had blown (this feeds the parking light, rear light and provides the power to the start relay contacts to operate the starter solenoid, hence no starter). I replaced with a spare 15A and away we go. Until I stopped further down the road for petrol and wouldn't start again!! I replaced the fuse, but this time it still wouldn't start (fuse had blown straight away). I stuck in a spare 25A fuse (this was clear so I could watch it as I turned on the ignition) - instant poof! At this point I rang my wife to pick me up so I could get the cct diagram and some test gear - she was NOT happy!!

    I figured there had to be a solid short cct. somewhere, but testing with a multimeter couldn't find any problems, so I put the meter in place of the fuse, reading amps, and cranked it and away it went. I replaced the fuse and it was fine for a couple of days, until it happened again but at least this time I was at home. First thing I did was hook the meter in place of the fuse and cranked it. With ignition on it was drawing about 700 mA, which would have been the lights, and when I hit the starter it jumped to about 4A, which would have been the starter solenoid, and then dropped back again when it was running. I did this a few times and then suddenly instead of 4A it jumped briefly to 13A! This surge would probably account for the fuse blowing, as it may very well have peaked higher. But as to what caused it......

    End result, I checked all the connectors, including pulling the starter, but could find nothing wrong. I have an auxiliary fuse panel fitted, currently only being used for my Stebel air horn and it's located next to the battery so is very close to the start relay. I disconnected the main battery feed wire to the start relay, as mentioned earlier in this thread, and replaced it with a 15A feed from the aux. fuse panel. I figured that at the very least this will isolate the start cct from the lights, so I'll have a better idea where to look if something blows again.

    This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, as the cct involving that particular fuse is very simple, and a short that could blow a 25A fuse should be easy to find, nor would I expect it to come and go like it has.

    Oh well, at least I'm starting to understand the wiring of the wee beastie a bit better!!
     
  7. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    852
    Location:
    Huntsville, AL
    dikman,

    Did you ascertain the voltage drop at the starter relay? That is the available voltage on the power side of the relay vs the actual battery voltage? Anyway, the modification you made should take care of the situation.
     
  8. dikman

    dikman Tuned and Synch'ed

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sth. Oz
    John, I hope you're right! I'm still perplexed as to how just turning on the ignition can sometimes cause this fuse to suddenly blow - but not always. And why it's suddenly started doing this after all this time. Anyhow, we'll see what happens.
     
  9. dikman

    dikman Tuned and Synch'ed

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sth. Oz
    Well, I've been out shopping today, so quite a bit of stopping and re-starting and it didn't miss a beat. I'm not completely happy about all this because what was happening doesn't make a lot of sense, but re-wiring the start cct, as per this mod, certainly won't do any harm.

    Time will tell.
     
  10. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    911
    Likes Received:
    97
    Location:
    Mount Kembla, NSW, Australia
    Sometimes (and it really is sporadic), the starter solenoid does not pull in quickly enough. The starter solenoid is reliant on the metal core of the starter solenoid pulling in quickly to provide an increase in inductance in the starter coil so that magnetism is up there (to start your engine) and current is not (to not blow a fuse). I would guesstimate that you may have a sticking solenoid and this is what causes the fuse to blow, sporadically.

    Pull the starter again and clean thoroughly the starter solenoid and all linkages. This should not have much (if any) grease or lubricant in the actual solenoid as this attracts dirt and other unwanted debris to stick to the lubricant in the solenoid. First it starts to stick occasionally, then it just does not want to start at all.

    The linkages should have a light lubricant on them to ensure continued operation, but may be kept clean and dry (resulting on some wear and tear of the metal parts)
     
  11. dikman

    dikman Tuned and Synch'ed

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sth. Oz
    Just got back to this thread (I'm taking up black powder shooting, so that has been a major distraction from my usual interests) and, lacking any other solid evidence as to the cause, your idea is as good as any, Tony. I'm pretty sure that the solenoid seemed ok, but it looks like I'll be pulling it out again to make sure!

    There can't be too much wrong, as the bike has been running fine. But I need to know!!!
     
  12. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2008
    Messages:
    2,032
    Likes Received:
    196
    Location:
    Addlestone, Surrey, UK
    Anyone know the function of the starter maintenance relay as designated in Carl's diagrams for the 8 valve bikes?
    Does this affect the normal fix for the start problem?
     
  13. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    852
    Location:
    Huntsville, AL
    It looks like that relay is there to allow starter operation if you hold the starter switch down. By the schematic, you could remove that relay and the bike would start under ECU control. The supply voltage to the relays still looks poor. I'd say the 8 valve bikes would benefit from the mod just like all the others.
     
  14. NickSzasz

    NickSzasz Tuned and Synch'ed

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Fukuoka, Japan
    Hello again,

    I finally got to talk to my mechanic about this problem. He's willing to try the direct to starter wiring fix for me.

    I read the thread about this:
    https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/196/4908

    But it seems to talk about small blocks first and then, later, less specifically about the CARC bikes.

    I have a Girso 12008v (2008)

    My mechanic doesn't speak or read English well (he's Japanese) so showing him that thread didn't help.

    Would someone be kind enough to provide a sketch of wiring fix for this?

    With that my mechanic can implement it and I'll be back on the road.

    Thanks in advance,

    Nick
     
  15. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    852
    Location:
    Huntsville, AL
    Use the graphic in the first post of the thread. Just change the color of the wire that gets the 12 volts directly from the battery to yellow. Also tell him this is done for the starter relays, items 2 and 3 in Carl's schematic in the downloads section.
     
  16. ghezzi

    ghezzi High Miler GT Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Messages:
    836
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I decided it was time to do this to my Bellagio after a bump start the other day. I had 13.3v on the dash (Lithium battery) but got zero response. This time the voltage didn't even drop.

    I chose to pick apart the connector on the "Yellow" wire in the back of the fuse/relay box, so I could use the same gauge wire as the two 30A fuse wires from the battery + terminal. I prefer a single wire without joins etc midway and I soldered all terminals.

    However, when moving things around I discovered the two 30A fuse wires had been twisted together and the battery terminal had only been crimped. IT FELL OFF IN MY HAND! That may explain a lot.

    Two heavy gauge wires into a single 6mm eye terminal simply doesn't fit. So I spliced one wire into the middle of the other soldering it, and then soldered the terminal on the end of the long wire to connect to the battery.

    After completion and repeated quick fire starting, I had a thought (danger danger).
    Two circuits, each with a 30A fuse are drawing current through a single small gauge wire of about 3" in length.
    Will this equate to too much resistance etc. for its intended requirements?

    Update: Previous cranking would see voltage drop to about 9.5V, now it holds 11.0V while starting.
     
  17. GuzziHero

    GuzziHero Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    467
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Stoke-on-Bloody-Trent
    Y'know, I always thought it was some low-voltage cut-off to protect the battery from over draining. It got to the stage where I'd take the bike to work and remove the fuses, so that it would start when I came back to it 12 hours later.

    Right, now to find someone in my area who can do this for me.
     
  18. Kiwi_Roy

    Kiwi_Roy Just got it firing!

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    New Westminster
    I signed up here ages ago but haven't been back
    The starter solenoid draws about 40 Amps for a split second, it only takes a slight resistance to prevent that.
    The fixes listed above are well worth doing

    Here's a simple schematic of the Valeo starter circuit trying to explain why it's important

    http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s52 ... 69d0b7.jpg - or image attached below if kink above is dead.

    My V11 Sport has nice direct wiring as shown but most Guzzis pass the 40 Amps through the switch, even the extra wiring to and fro is a problem IMHO The Bosch starters also have this issue.

    If ever you get stuck by a bike that won't crank work the ignition switch a few times to improve the contact, if that doesn't help touch a short wire from battery + (or large hot terminal on the starter) to the small spade connector on the solenoid, this bypasses all the wiring and will give the solenoid full power.

    Roy
    Here's the Valeo

    Did I attach that or someone smarter than me fix it :(

    And the Bosch
    [​IMG]
    http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s52 ... ae1aec.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    622
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Thessaly, Greece
    Very very nice documents! [​IMG]
    I suppose this double wound solenoid is not specific to Guzzis so thank you for the enlightenment since I had not come across to such data yet.

    By the way, a link to the numbering scheme of most automotive electrics that I came across the other day:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_72552
     
  20. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2008
    Messages:
    2,032
    Likes Received:
    196
    Location:
    Addlestone, Surrey, UK
    Almost all starter motor solenoids have two coils, one for pulling the solenoid in and the other just to hold it in once the contact is made.
     

Share This Page